let's learn why Peltier devices are not actually very cool in this new video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnMRePtHMZY
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@TechConnectify Did you see that LTT video like a year ago where they tested the latest attempt to use this effect for CPU cooling? It was also terrible. ^_^
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@moira "there is alia video on the topic" should never be a reason not to make a video 😊
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@wheeze_NL That's not what I'm saying, though - I mean, the use cases being described are completely different. It's more a YEP THEY SURE ARE TERRIBLE xD kind of thing.
The only reasonable use case I've found for any peltier cooling kit has been as a replacement/augmentation for a passive cooler in a car. I have one, it wasn't a super-cheap model (tho' I got it for free via credit union rewards points) and so it's actually not loud even with its fan. If you throw in a small plastic-wrapped ice block on top, you get many, many hours more useful time out of a portable cooler. So if you're on the road for hours (in our case, if you're a touring band on the road), it actually becomes useful. And he talks about that.
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@TechConnectify Thanks for doing videos and thanks for still engaging here :)
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@TechConnectify some years back, i replaced a peltier module on a "box fridge" for camping uses
it's desing was way better tehn that fridge, because it had a cooler and fan on both sides of the module
insulated with expanded foam and all, it "kinda worked", good enough to keep cool beer on the beach
(actual cooling done on car battery on the way there)
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@TechConnectify I offer you the following, if you have to explain the refrigeration cycle in a video not about it: "The LaCroix of brief."
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@TechConnectify
The smallest compressor I've ever "seen"* was the one for Adam Savage's cooling suit. It probably could cool something the size of the little blue thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_Ti4GP0ntE
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@TechConnectify can’t beat physics
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@TechConnectify time to add a connextras discussion of garage-ready fridges. :rocket_pop:
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@TechConnectify Another great video. I always assumed those little desktop fridges didn’t work very well (though it sounds like they do better than I thought.)
I had no idea they used Peltier elements. Never would have occurred to me they were less efficient than a full real fridge.
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@TechConnectify also those extremely small cheap toys have another issue that is just amplifying the issues you discussed. And that is the have the squarecube law against them, they have an insane amount of surface area to absorb heat from compared to the volume where as a large fridge benefits from having large volume compaired to surface area. So when you scale up something it takes less and less energy to keep something cold.
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@TechConnectify I actually ran into these in one super niche use case where they were useful. At an astronomy observatory I was at for a bit they switched from cooling the CCDs with liquid nitrogen to using Peltier coolers. Even with the inefficiency, it was far cheaper than hauling liquid nitrogen tanks into the mountains, and didn't require nearly as much maintenance
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@jenbanim @TechConnectify Electronics engineer here. This is where they really shine, but it's not a use case you see much in household appliances: When you are cooling very small things, Peltier devices can keep things cold without having to move a lot of energy.
Typically, even for ICs, they are bad (but CCDs don't generate a lot of energy, luckily). I've been using them to cool down photon detectors (used with some very niche optical systems). Those detectors get very hot, but they are also micrometers across in size. At that scale, it doesn't take many watts of cooling power to cool it by over a hundred degrees C.
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@pianosaurus @jenbanim @TechConnectify Untested but suspected useful application: maintaining ultra low humidity in an enclosed environment using wicking action to move the condensation to hot side and evaporate it off outside enclosure using the heat.
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@jenbanim @TechConnectify and the hot side probably had a decent water cooling to remove the calories moved around.
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@f4grx I could be misremembering but I believe it was 100% cooled passively with a large heatsink. The person who installed it made a big deal of there being no moving parts
I think that was possible because the CCD was very small, didn't generate much heat, and was installed in a quite cold environment
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@jenbanim interesting! And no cryocooler involved? The insulation of the cool side must have been very good.
Of course in a scientific instrument, design and engineering of such systems is fully understood and well implemented, so I'm not very surprised that it performed beautifully as intended.
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@f4grx I believe so but I could definitely be mistaken. Sorry, this is really cool and I wish I could give a better answer but it was >5 years ago and I didn't have much to do with the engineering side of the telescope
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@TechConnectify south Illinois persona screaming "I'VE GOT A GIANT AMERICAN FRIDGE" is going to stay with me for a long, long time
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@TechConnectify Just curious – how thick are the walls on that cube fridge in the video, they looked very thin to me? I've got a similar fridge at my weekend house (where I just happen to be at the moment), and that one has 55 mm walls (the fridge itself is 45 cm wide).
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@jernej__s The are indeed thinner, about 30mm
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@TechConnectify Fun and informative, as always. I have a question about a comment you made about your big fridge, though. You said the bottom freezer was a knock against it. I thought the freezer being on the bottom helped to keep cold air inside when opened, reducing the energy needed to re-cool the freezer. Why is a bottom freezer a bad design? Thanks.
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@alexhall A chest freezer holds onto air, yes, but anything with a slide-out drawer will spill out all the air every time you open it.
But that's not the main issue, it's that US fridge designs use a single evaporator in the freezer and the fridge is simply fed air from the freezer. Top-freezer models get help from the air in the freezer being denser so it mostly just falls in through a baffle which opens and closes. Bottom-freezers needs fans to push air up and into the fridge compartment.
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@TechConnectify I had no idea. Thank you! My fridge is similar to yours--bottom drawer freezer and two doors. I always thought it was more efficient because of the freezer being on the bottom. Now I know that's not the case.
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@TechConnectify @alexhall We have a big Kenwood fridge-freezer with the freezer on the bottom as is common, always wondered why I hear fans sometimes.
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@TechConnectify the whole time I was about to tell my wife: "told ya, I was always for the compressor-cooler for when we go on vacation with the car" and then you said the peltier ones are okay for exactly this use case. Damn...
Still thanks for the video!
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@TechConnectify After not being surprised that the toy fridge has no insulation in the door, it makes me wonder why nobody has made a chest freezer style (door on top, cans stored vertically). It'd probably perform a lot better. They always seem to be the same general layout (probably because they are all manufactured by one company overseas)
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@phaux @TechConnectify I have seen some of those!
They call it electric ice box. I guess the "delta T max 22C" reveals it's a peltier type cooler:
https://www.campingaz.fr/glaci%C3%A8res/glaci%C3%A8res-%C3%A9lectriques/glaci%C3%A8re-%C3%A9lectrique-powerbox-plus-36l-12v/SAP_2000024957.html
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@phaux @TechConnectify That’s how the one for my car works - opens on top, cold stays in. But it’s much better made than the shitty blue thing in general, with insulation and all that.
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@moira @phaux @TechConnectify Same here. Thick insulation in a top opening design, and will keep things cold for a few hours even without power. It even seems to have a thermostat regulating the fan speeds. There are fans on both sides of the heat pump. Runs off either 12V DC or 240V AC.
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@TechConnectify I wonder how this device works. Something with heat pipes?
https://youtu.be/6kw4B-8ez1M
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@TechConnectify I had a good laugh over how you addressed possible comments by us europeans early. 😁Very good execution.
I was a little bit disappointed that you didn't mention radio radioisotope thermoelectric generators,though. But I can see why that might be a off topic. Still my favorite use of peltier elements.
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@TechConnectify 50F might be alright for British beer.
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@TechConnectify I thought the rule of thumb for these was that they'd keep a beverage about 20⁰F COOLER than the external temperature. I'll check this out to see if you found out the same thing.
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@TechConnectify I loved it when you put the stupid fridge inside the actual fridge :D
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@TechConnectify Ah, these things. Without looking it up, I can already tell it isn’t very efficient. The thermoelectric effect just isn’t.
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@TechConnectify Fun fact: Peltier elements work the „third” way too — they can turn temperature difference to current (and work).
Great video, thanks.
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@TechConnectify I will love you forever for skibidi heat pump.
That is all.
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@TechConnectify the one thing TECs are good for is keeping laser diodes to precise temperatures, like within 0.01K.
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@f4grx @TechConnectify very fast, not very efficient
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@f4grx @TechConnectify And spray chambers for ionisation sources.
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@mw1cgg @TechConnectify aha!
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@TechConnectify
A peltier cooler is a tool. Study and apply its strengths, and avoid its weaknesses.
Years ago I built an astronomical CCD camera.
Similar to the one mentioned here:
https://tocobs.org/ccd.htm
I used a two-stage peltier stack and a liquid cooled heat exchanger on the hot side.
I only had to cool a small black and white TV chip inside a small, well insulated chamber.
I got the cold side down to -45C during a max cooling test with the camera sitting in my living room.
That met my needs just fine.
If I were to design some sort of personal fridge...I'd go back to the books and start from scratch. The end result would probably be rather different than my "cookbook CCD camera."
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@TechConnectify I was honestly not expecting them to be that inefficient...
Huh... TIL.
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@TechConnectify Enjoying this as we speak. As a relatively new home owner, your obsessive interest in the minute details of the seemingly mundane aspects of modern living has been a continuous source of joy, or at least provded some comic relief (I want to murder the people who designed my dishwasher (it's a Bosch. Yeah, I know; I expected so much from that name), and my fridge, which I already expounded on in the YT comments lmao)
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@gordoooo_z @TechConnectify
I had two Bosch dishwashers and they were the worst I've ever owned. They both developed identical leaks in the bottom tank after less than five years in operation - clearly an uncorrected design fault. Replaced by an Italian machine from INDESIT which not only cost less but has been problem free for over seven years.
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@andrewprice @TechConnectify I don't know how old ours is, because it came with the place, but while ours doesn't actively leak, the door latch is so convoluted and nonsensical, that it is possible to close the door to a degree that the controllers thinks it's closed, but that it is not sealed enough that steam won't escape, condense under the lip of the countertop, and end up in a puddle across the kitchen floor. There's like a shaft that goes from the front of the dishwasher under the top...
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@andrewprice @TechConnectify ...rack, to a thing in the back of the dishwasher, and that appears to be how it determines if the door is closed or not??? Also for a while, the door just wouldn't close, because the thing that mates up to at the back was dislocated, so I'd have to shove my arm all the way in, lift it up, then quickly close the door?
It's... unfathomable. My parents' white Frigidaire from the 1997 was probably bottom of the range, simple as they come, and functioned continuously...
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@andrewprice @TechConnectify ...for over 20 years.
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@andrewprice @TechConnectify ...UPHILL! BOTH WAYS! IN THE SNOW! 😅
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@TechConnectify always enjoying your vids. thank you :)
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@TechConnectify This would be great for a McDLT.
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@TechConnectify they do work for school science classes
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@TechConnectify Yet again, you've saved me from making another stupid purchase
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@TechConnectify
I loved the yankee-fridge part, had to rewind to laugh twice, thank you!
And now that I'm writing, thank you for rememembing us in the 230W-land, with our SI-units and stuff. Always makes me fuzzy.
Watching anglosphere-content, sometimes it feels like you're the only one who does. I want to say how much it means to me!
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@TechConnectify Nice.
Another niche application is small astronomical cameras, which often have a small thermoelectric cooler to keep the sensor chip cool enough (ie 0C for visual band, cooler for IR). Great for that because you only need to cool a tiny thermal mass. But even then, the cooler often draws substantially more power than the rest of the camera+telescope mount combined, which can be an issue when you're powering it with a battery in the field.
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@simonbp @TechConnectify And, increasingly, some not so small astronomical cameras too, e.g. https://www.princetoninstruments.com/products/cosmos-family/cosmos
Admittedly those COSMOS cameras need both an internal thermoelectric cooler and an external water chiller, with the water cooling being used to carry the heat away from the hot side of the thermoelectric stack.
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@TechConnectify
I feel the need to defend the honor of Peltier coolers. The appropriate use cases are very limited -- where the power that needs to be lifted is small, and the temperatures are not too far below room temp. In those cases, it can be the best solution, by far smaller and lighter than other coolers.
A beer cooler is probably not a good application. A CPU cooler is absolutely not a good application.
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@TechConnectify Are Peltier devices used in ships or airplanes or other vehicles where weight is a concern and the vehicles movement could also dive circulation of air/water against a radiator?
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@TechConnectify Love your shirt
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