Once again @pluralistic has managed to distill into once sentence something I've had trouble finding the words to explain. I'll be stealing this one!
"The classic leftist distinction goes: leftists want to abolish a system where 150 white men run the world; liberals want to replace half of those 150 with women, queers and people of color." https://pluralistic.net/2023/09/05/not-that-naomi/#if-the-naomi-be-klein-youre-doing-just-fine
See also: Why I refuse to be labeled as a 'Liberal'. (I'm not a 'Leftist' either, exactly. But I'll leave that for another toot.)
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@jackwilliambell @pluralistic There's an irony there only Americans can appreciate.
They literally conflate their two political parties with the whole truth of politics.
They result in a mishmash where they can say anything about anything and appear sharp and witty, yet has no application beyond their particular economic power structure.
I'm glad Europe isn't yet as fucked up talking about politics as they are. But hey, Elon is trying to get us there too.
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@gimulnautti @pluralistic
The first thing to understand about USA politics is: everything is shifted one slot to the right.
Forex, Democrats aren't wishy-washy 'Liberals' really. They are more like a European Center Right party. What Europeans call 'Liberals', we call 'Socialists' and what Europeans call 'Socialists', we call 'Communists'.
The founding fathers of the USA tried to create a system hostile to political parties. In the end they created a system favorable to only two parties.
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@gimulnautti @pluralistic
The greatest trick Republicans ever pulled is convincing nearly everyone, including many Democratic Party members, that the Democratic Party is left-liberal and aligned with Marxism.
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@jackwilliambell
If only!
That this is bullshit, it's enough to look at how many Democrat congress(wo)men command at least an 8-figure fortune in stocks and shares.
None of those will ever be a Marxist.
@gimulnautti @pluralistic
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@mina @pluralistic @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti “As Marxist as Pelosi” seems to be the right measure here.
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@ildiavolorosso @mina @pluralistic @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti I've noticed Americans as a whole tend to be deeply ignorant about what Marxism even is.
For example, I would be willing to wager $100 that if you chose a group of 1000 Americans from across the country, at least half of them could not explain what "historical materialism" or "the labour theory of value" mean.
Or for that matter "bourgeoisie" and "proletariat".
Or even give a decent summary, even a critical one, of Marx and Engel's main arguments.
And I guarantee that at least half have never read even "The Communist Manifesto".
Heck, I could limit that bet to a random sample of 1000 people from the blue states who voted for Harris, and I'd still probably win.
Why it matters is informed critique.
Ask a Lithuanian, say, who's over 40 and critical of Marxism to give an explanation of what Marxism is, and what its issues are. You'll probably get a decent explanation of the theory, and then how Russia's implementation was used to justify occupation and violence.
Or a first-hand account of how the railways actually worked under Marxist–Leninist central planning during the Russian occupation.
Informed critique.
Ask an American, and there's a non-zero chance they'll say something about how communism is the government taking their guns.
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@ajsadauskas @mina @pluralistic @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti I live in that reality every day. Even in the middle of stark-blue San Francisco, you won't exactly find people in cafes talking dialectical materialism. Then again, you won't find many on the right quoting Adam Smith either (and those who do quote him selectively...most Econ majors never actually read the classics).
But I think lived experience of working people matters more than the ideological. The one thing most Americans share, whether they choose to accept it or not, is their class identity. And it's incredibly painful when grifter politicians (Harris included...we know her a bit too well here) fundraise on fearmongering of the "other" instead of doing the hard work of organizing the proles and representing our interests. At the end of the day, many of those MAGAs are so close to being socialist, prevented from realizing it only by cognitive dissonance and a political culture that teaches them that the infidel has cooties...
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@ajsadauskas @ildiavolorosso @mina @pluralistic @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti It is very important to draw a line between Marxism as the socio-economic theory, and the various offshoots like Leninism and Maoism which added, among other things, authoritarian rule/oppression of criticism.
I grew up in one of those countries, and Lenin was universally venerated next to Marx and Engels. But we can thank him for the fact that Marxism is often conflated with brutal authoritarianism and mass murder.
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@rainynight65 @ajsadauskas @ildiavolorosso @mina @pluralistic @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti Disagree. See e.g. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/sam-dolgoff-bakunin-vs-marx
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@jackwilliambell @pluralistic @gimulnautti I’ve started to believe that the best path is to lean right into this: if the fascists call you a socialist, own that label…seize the means of production, redistribute unearned wealth. It’s long past time to stop letting billionaires and their puppets control the narrative.
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@ildiavolorosso @pluralistic @gimulnautti
You'll need another party to do that, because no matter how they are perceived the Democrats will remain who they are. See discussion above.
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@gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic I agree. Strong doubts that Dems can or will allow any meaningful resistance.
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@ildiavolorosso @gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic It's hard to offer much resistance when you have lost all branches of government in the elections.
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@tragiccommons @gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic I don't think they offered much resistance (or even an agenda) when they had all three branches.
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@ildiavolorosso @tragiccommons @gimulnautti @pluralistic
Sure they did. It just wasn't what Democratic voters thought they were voting for. Which is nearly my entire point.
The USA was always open to its politics being co-opted by the mega-rich. We even attempted to limit their influence, especially after Nixon. But Citizens United put an end to that and now both major parties are owned lock, stock and barrel by oligarchs.
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@tragiccommons @ildiavolorosso @gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic They had all three a couple of times now and let the GOP minority block all meaningful action.
Now that they're in the minority, they will pretend they can't also be obstructionists in the minority because they don't disagree that strongly.
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@gooba42 @tragiccommons @gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic Come now, you're not giving them enough credit: they'll do more than just pretend. They'll also fundraise off of it.
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@gooba42 @ildiavolorosso @gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic turns out elections have consequences. The republicans came together behind a flawed candidate.
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@tragiccommons @gooba42 @gimulnautti @jackwilliambell @pluralistic They sure did. And they convinced enough non-Republicans to vote for that deeply flawed candidate to not only give him the cheap electoral college victory, but also the popular one. I think it says a lot more about the campaign's ability to project effectiveness and motivate its base than it does about some mythical idea of the integrity of the voters though.
And for many, Dems' failure to govern well when they are in power is a big factor.
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@ildiavolorosso I dunno. You might end up having to own it even when the people who are nominally opposed to the fascists are also calling you a socialist in order to seem normal by comparison.
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@janxdevil The Kamala Harris model of plantation politics...we San Franciscans are well familiar with that :(
But hey, it seems to have worked for the #Trumpanzees
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@ildiavolorosso @jackwilliambell @pluralistic @gimulnautti I am one (founding and lifetime member of DSA), radicalized by Reagan in CA when he was governor. What I’ve learned since is they’ll call you one whether or not you actually are. So the sooner we own it the sooner we’ll see it here IRL.
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@jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic And that Marxism is a bad thing when ironically a lot of deeply American things like employees getting shares in the business are deeply Marxist.
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@jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic Yeah I noticed this over the years since I started really paying attention - been rooting for the Dems but wouldn't touch the Tories over here with a bargepole. It's sad normal (for us, for most of Europe) social policies are so demonised over there.
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@jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic one slot!?
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@hvdsomp @gimulnautti @pluralistic
At least. Recent developments notwithstanding.
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@jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic
French socialists in the 90s were considered socialist capitalists, now they are social democrats. They are very sloppy leftists.
French communists are so instutionalized from unions supporting them that they become reactionary.
The leftist group that has a real clear agenda and that reassembled the left is called an antisemitic extremist group in the media (owned by christian capitalists).
Unfortunately we got the worse from US these past 25 years.
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@jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic When I lived in Europe (where there are actual left-wing parties), I found it comical that Americans thought the Democrats were “left-wing”.
Now I live in the US, it doesn't seem comical at all.
But Trump & friends now claim the Democrats are "far-left radicals”: absurd, but many Americans seem to accept the new lie as uncritically as they accepted the previous one.
Meanwhile, the American right has gone far-right, but still pretend to be moderates.
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@angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic they've moved on already. the new elon endorsed claim is that "All elections are rigged and Democrats don't exist"
https://x.com/rothschildmd/status/1887176791967867373
[#]ElonMusk #uspol
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@cryptadamist @angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic Absolutely unbelievable.
Are people really that dumb?
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@Gladso @angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic no, but they are that evil
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@cryptadamist @Gladso @angusm @jackwilliambell @pluralistic Exactly, believing them is giving them an advantage!
Part of their game is to have you chasing these ghosts, keeping you distracted.
Now you’re getting it! 👌
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@Gladso @cryptadamist @angusm @gimulnautti @pluralistic
Yes.
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@cryptadamist wtf? Utterly unhinged.
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@smilingdemon https://universeodon.com/@cryptadamist/113953303384653346
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@smilingdemon @cryptadamist And 100% on purpose. To throw you off. Gish gallop. To keep you explaining away, to amuse themselves.
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@cryptadamist
"All elections are rigged (except for the ones we won, which were 100% fair and square)"
@angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic
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@bitcrush_io @cryptadamist @angusm @jackwilliambell @pluralistic Just laugh at this allready.
There’s one thing authoritarians can’t stand: Ridicule.
Take a page from the playbook of eastern europeans, who toppled both communism and the dictators which followed.
Great episode to listen here:
https://www.humanetech.com/podcast/laughing-at-power-a-troublemakers-guide-to-changing-tech
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@cryptadamist @angusm @jackwilliambell @pluralistic
Elon Musk hates USAID because it helped topple apartheid in South Africa
https://mastodon.green/@gimulnautti/113952730400857871
Otherwise it’s just lies and stupid, because what it really does is land everybody in the global south in China’s lap.
He’s the world’s smartest idiot.
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@gimulnautti @angusm @jackwilliambell @pluralistic that's the generous interpretation. the less generous interpretation is that #ElonMusk is a russian agent sent to put a stake in the heart of the agency #Putin has been fighting his whole life, from his early #KGB days until today.
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@angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic
It's the same in Europe. The entire political spectrum has shifted to the right to such an extent that the demand for human rights to be respected is already classified as radical left-wing. Perhaps some countries are not yet as far as the usa.
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@somlu1968 @angusm @gimulnautti @pluralistic
I'll avoid getting into a dick measuring contest as to who has shifted the most to the right. (And when.) But I'll admit a general rightward shift is the trend.
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@jackwilliambell @angusm @gimulnautti @pluralistic
I didn't say anything about who is “most right-wing”, only that the political spectrum as a whole has shifted to the right. And that is not my observation alone, there are studies on this. For example, the party “Die Linke” by and large represents social democratic positions that have been considered far-left for a while, even by the SPD.
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@angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic I think the dems are in a similar place to Labour in the UK, which is centre-right. Definitely not left.
And people still think they are the socialist party. Both countries do not have anyone representing the left wing, the socialist beliefs, things that many people actually do hold.
And, again, people vote for the less-fascist party, because it is less-fascist. Because there is no real alternative.
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@SteveClough @angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic Starmer seems to be somewhere around Major but without the charisma.
Few in the UK vote for anything IMHO. We are a nation of people who vote against things, protest against things and complain about things. That's what makes reform dangerous - the grumpy old git vote is substantial.
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@etchedpixels @SteveClough, even the peas should be grey…?
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@SteveClough @angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic same in Spain
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@angusm @jackwilliambell @gimulnautti @pluralistic Not only that. After using violent imagery as a matter of course for years, the right pretend to be intimidated and sickened when mainstream Democrats dare to use the word "fight."
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@jackwilliambell as a German I can mostly agree. Of course a lot of thint do not completely translate but the closest party to trump and especially Elon Musk is aNeonazi -party (Afd).
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@jackwilliambell
The voting system is really important to prevent the two parties system and radicalization.
The most used system (direct or indirect with one or two round) encourage the apparition of two parties which will have antagonizing positions.
Condorcet method or equivalent voting system are much more useful to promote multiples parties with consensus opinions.
@gimulnautti @pluralistic
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@bria @gimulnautti @pluralistic
I think the easiest voting system to explain to people is 'Ranked Choice voting'; and even that is likely to seem like a boondoggle to people who can't do math.
I.E. the innumerate 40% of USA citizens…
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@jackwilliambell @bria @gimulnautti @pluralistic I am a member of a minor political party in Australia (we have national rank choice voting) and I think alternative voting systems are definitely cool (compulsory voting also forces politicians to pitch to the middle). But nothing we have is a panacea for political woes (eg. plenty of polarisation and money changing hands down-under).
(That said. if the rise of independent 'teal' politicians continues, that could be transformative for us)
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@jackwilliambell @pluralistic
This may be the dumbest, most sexist and racist thing I've ever read, and is Exhibit A why the White Left is distrusted and despised by BIPOC.
Where exactly in that statement is inclusion of people who are NOT Cis White Men? It mocks inclusion. How is it any different from the current Right Wing war on DEI?
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text/gemini
