Reaching out to @actuallyautistic to see if anyone has had experience of learning how to do “enough” work rather than their “best” work, which comes naturally to them. (Note: I am not referring to perfectionism here. This about breaching personal values related to integrity).
Integrity is the number 1 value I live by in my life.
BUT, I realise now that I need to learn how to care less about doing my “honest best” in work (university studies and jobs) and find a way to do work that is only “enough”, which will be below my honest best. This feels AWFUL to contemplate. It feels dishonest, like lying, like even poisoning my own career. But there are strong reason for wanting to attempt this that have been building my whole life.
Knowing how to only do “enough” or only a little more than enough, versus doing much more when we have the ability to do so …is a skill. Some people do this intuitively. I’ve watched and admired them because they also seem to have a better life balance because of it. But I would bet a large number of autistics are like me: I default to doing my honest best, which is usually much more than is required or that someone else would do, even if it risks burnout or worse.
In an ideal world, I’d love to continue doing my honest best, always. That brings me a sense of pleasure and peace. But I cannot do this under time pressure. And I do not have all the time in the world.
While it’s great my quality of work is high, the cost of doing this to a deadline is far too great and will make my health decline if I don’t stop this right now.
In business and related areas, there is a very old framework for thinking of this. It uses a triad of concepts:
In this framework, you can only have a maximum of two of those three concepts at their optimum, so at least one will always suffer.
The idea is that you get strategic and pick what is most important to preserve, versus finding out the hard way that it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to “have it all”!
Using this framework in this context, the “quality” of my work is high. But right now that is leading to either very poor “speed” or “cost”. If I work slowly (I.e. this is the part that suffers) then I can preserve my health and don’t risk burnout, while also keeping my work quality high. The problem is that I am borrowing from my future: by extending the duration of my flexible self-paced course, I am delaying the time until I can graduate and get a job (which is not possible alongside studies). At worst, I will come up against the hard deadline of my course (its maximum duration) and have to rush the final work, anyway.
If I speed up my work and try to keep the quality high like it is now (quality means here doing my honest best; not perfection), I get sick and FAST. The deterioration is massive. This doesn’t just impact my studies (cannot study at all), but impacts the rest of my life and relationships. The “cost” here isn’t exactly financial, not directly anyway, but it is expensive in terms of the widespread negative consequences.
So, I want to lower my quality of work. Because this way I should be able to work more quickly, avoid costs to my health, AND graduate sooner and so earn money sooner. I also hope this will help me keep a good quality of life, and even help me feel good about progressing at a steady pace (versus very slow).
Also, I don’t NEED high grades. I did that for my undergraduate degree and it was unexpected, and it has given me a huge boost. This Masters degree can be a pass or a Merit at best is fine. I do not need a Distinction.
I do not currently possess the skills or mindset or whatever to work to a lower standard by choice. But I want to. I need to.
This is about self preservation. This is about keeping perspective.
I love my studies and care about them, so by default, that equates to always doing my best, not matter what else suffers. How do I change this view to… loving and caring for my studies, but not going further than what is necessary to progress? I’m not talking about barely scraping by with a pass, but doing enough to meet the course requirements in a respectable, average way. And also know I can do better.
I should not need to do my best work for a purpose that no one else cares about! I want to save my best work for me, and only do “enough” elsewhere.
If you are someone who has found this intuitive to do, please be sensitive in your replies as when I have spoken to people who find this relatively simple, they tend to not realise how damn hard it is for the rest of us. So, I’d really rather hear from anyone who has actively gone from where I am now to where I want to be. I’d love to hear how you did it, any tips, resources, advice… whatever you can think of.
How do I make peace with doing work that I know is below the quality of what I can do? (Again, I am not aiming for perfect, only my own personal, honest best.)
EDIT to add: I do not currently have a job, no boss, no deadlines or anything like that. I’m seeking advice for coursework for my university degree course. What I learn now I intend to apply to jobs in the future, but I need to build these skillsets in my coursework right now FIRST.
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@actuallyautistic Further to my post above:
I have a piece of coursework that is done. But I also have an opportunity to find out if I missed something or could improve it somehow in the next day or two.
WHY can I not just submit it NOW?
I am getting on with the next coursework already, and there are no deadlines so nothing is lost by waiting a bit… BUT I need to just submit work that I know deep down is “enough”. 😤
…EVEN when I strongly suspect I could do better. THIS part is the kicker.
When I know for sure that I can do better, and yet I must actively turn down that opportunity in favour of getting sh!t done sooner. THIS is the goal.
And I could have stopped working on that coursework 2-3 weeks ago and it would have been enough, even back then. So this has been time wasted. Sure, I’ll get a better grade as a result of putting in more work, maybe even Distinction level grades (highest)… but for what? That is not why I’m doing this course. I don’t need high grades. I plan to continue learning after the course and for the rest of my career.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Here's what has helped me:
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@StevenSaus @actuallyautistic Your point number 4 is huge! I like to pretend this isn’t true, but it is! Thank you for this. This is what I meant about self preservation and my whole post… I get it all on a logic level and even have masses of proof it’s true for me, but why am I not acting accordingly?! I think the answer is that it’s because I don’t know HOW, and it’s not about me needing more convincing. The motivation is there in spades.
This is where the day-to-day skillset needs to be built, I think. I don’t know how to do this. What are the skills, the habits, the tools…
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@AnAutieAtUni @StevenSaus @actuallyautistic I turned "hours" into a unit of trade loosely based on time, but more based on perceived average output based on coworkers. I was able to do this, as a quite principled, integrious person myself in the topic, when I realized the hour itself was the lie.
I consistently come in under hours for projected jobs for instance. Once I realized I was doing this AND burning out, the solution presented itself. I make sure my output matches above average, and make sure to learn A LOT of things related to my job in the meantime. I work on a PC so that is easier to do. OK I am a programmer for a construction company, so it is even even easier to do. So it still falls inline with enriching the company in part, but it falls inline with enriching me likely more. :)
I found this method to be prefered to "having everythjng done already" too early and managers scratching about what to do next. I hate being around work when not is to be done. I have a life.
Anyways, wildly, since the company is trading hours, and all of mine are substantiated in a journal even, it makes the company more money working longer on jobs since they upcharge and profit on every single hour worked on it to the contactor up the line. I found solice in this, and am also well supported there, so mileage of course varies.
Cheers!
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@thejikz @StevenSaus @actuallyautistic Fantastic to hear you’ve found a successful way of doing this! 👏
Although I can’t directly relate as I don’t have any coworkers or even other students around me to compare my speed of work with, and also I suspect I’m usually slower than average too… I still appreciate hearing success stories 💓
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@thejikz @AnAutieAtUni @StevenSaus @actuallyautistic
I do something like this too. I work in software development / tech ops. All my work is "do this asap", but depending on the task I have different definitions of asap.
Sometimes it includes making little improvements on the side, doing a little research, sometimes it's cut all the corners because there's a server on fire.
It's a shame we have to be sneaky about it. Well, I'm not very sneaky, the company I work in is probably more loose about it than yours, but I sometimes feel the pressure to do it under the radar. I think it's a cultural pressure.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Luckily, my day job is sorta consistent in its flow most days, so I've usually got a pretty good sense of what percentage of the work I need to have done by certain time points throughout my shift. For example, I often get assigned ~50 "units" of work for a 4 hour period. I'll usually do 20 in a half hour or 40 minutes, realize I'm ahead of schedule, and then adjust from there.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
So it's really just pattern recognition turned on myself, then setting a ping for when I'm deviating strongly from that. (SPECTACULARLY helpful and specific, I know, lol)
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@StevenSaus @actuallyautistic Really cool to hear how you’ve found such a strategy! It makes sense.
Wish I was in a related situation, but I’m currently doing an entirely self-paced university course with no deadlines and no other students around me. I set my own deadlines but haven’t been able to keep to them. So I suspect I’m a slower than average worker, which is the opposite of your situation (wish I was like you!!)
But I appreciate hearing the success story! Just need to find something that works for me to achieve the same. 🤔
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@StevenSaus @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic definitely this. I think of it as recognizing that requests are often clumsily or lazily phrased, so that they encompass more than is actually required and need to be… reinterpreted.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Learning the fine art of, it's good enough. Really hard, takes time and it helps if you realise that the striving for perfection is often about control and self-esteem and not just about our desire to do things right.
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@pathfinder @actuallyautistic Absolutely. Well said. I’m very glad I let go of striving for perfection years ago. It was killing me! I’ve never been perfect and don’t want to be.
Only want to do my best - which means submit coursework that accurately reflects my abilities, nothing more. But even THIS is too much. It is not sustainable. My “best” costs me too much and is more than what is needed.
Choosing not to work to the best of my ability is damn hard. I don’t feel this is about control. This feels much more about losing integrity.
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@pathfinder I think it’s an honesty and integrity struggle. I think autistic people when young accept the big statements adults make as part of our education, at face value. If “we do” less than we “can” we feel like we’re cheating. I have so many issues that revolve around having had very strict and inflexible values taught to me without any education on dealing with how things are done in the real world. Sorry if I’m not offering a solution. It’s just that you bringing up the topic at all rang a bell 🛎️instantly for me. @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
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@jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
This is, without doubt, part of our problem. We have this horrible tendency to take things literally and at their absolute. So work is either 100% or we're being lazy and feel guilty. No subtlety or middle grounds.
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@pathfinder @jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
I sympathise tremendously with this. It's summed up in a book YOUR ERRONEOUS ZONES. How people are encouraged to "do your best" and "work hard" or "try harder." If NTs struggle with disentangling themselves from this indoctrination, what chance those who take it literally? I was further screwed by my mother's insistence that I be "the best." But it did give me the excuse of not engaging with anything where I might not be the best.
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@DziadekMick @jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Be the best, is another horrible one. It really does add a hurdle to doing anything that we know we won't be great at, but which we would enjoy anyway. Always that pressure to excel or give up.
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@pathfinder Even worse was the fact that I absorbed the idea that I was the best. Add that to my directness and my urge to info-dump, and you'll get the idea of how unpopular I made myself. So it goes.
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@DziadekMick
That would do it 😂
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@DziadekMick Unpopularity. The story of my life. Once I found something I excelled at, that’s all I wanted to do and talk about. And people either loved me or hated me. Adults especially treated me badly. Mind you, I managed to survive because countless allies accommodated my needs too. I was very lucky.
@pathfinder
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@jeanoappleseed
Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. I learned to navigate by not giving a toss. Except when my feelings were hurt. Which of course, amplified my unpopularity for appearing to be a self-centred prick.
Go well, friend.
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@DziadekMick But you were adequately centered on yourself, on what your rules were, what was important to you. For me I was really struggling between suiting myself or pleasing others. I didn’t mind being alone but my parents were always telling me I needed to make friends or I’d end up alone. So that’s where I invested a lot of energy, with mixed success and at the expense of school.
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@pathfinder Always pressure. To conform. To put on our mask and make yet another attempt at fitting in. This is extremely hard and confusing as an adult but is brutal for a child, alone, in the dark.
@DziadekMick @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
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@jeanoappleseed @DziadekMick @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Definitely. As a child, without realising it, so many things get absorbed as a must do, rather than a should, if possible, do.
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@jeanoappleseed @pathfinder @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
I have an 8yo grandson who is learning this the hard way. Near photographic memory, a black belt in info dumping and a current obsession with things creepy-crawly, he struggles to conform with what society (basically school) and his peers want of him. Gladly, he takes everything on, kick- boxes boys twice his age, street dances, plays chess. I encourage him to do what he likes how he likes, because there is no “proper” way to be a boy.
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@DziadekMick Now you make me feel like reading You Erroneous Zones again. I read that decades ago. Maybe now that I know I’m autistic I’d interpret it differently. 😆@pathfinder @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
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@jeanoappleseed @pathfinder @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic It does read differently.
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@DziadekMick I may just give it another try then
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@pathfinder @jeanoappleseed @actuallyautistic
Absolutely! 💯
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@pathfinder Exactly. And as a result I’m my worst critic. Same goes for my Catholic education where during catechism class we were told to ALWAYS put others BEFORE ourselves. I tried. And so often failed. When I succeeded, I often shortchanged myself. When I failed I kicked myself.
This tendency to take things literally can be cute in the context of a joke being taken seriously or misinterpreted but little is said about how much damage can be done to the self when basic societal or religious values are applied literally. Or how confusing it can be to see that a society value is beyond reach and there seem to be no way to follow it. As a rule, our tendency to follow rules can be another issue when certain/many rules are simply ignored by most people. It creates impossible situations as we progress through life. @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
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@jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
I'm generally alright once I realise what I'm doing. The problem is how much stuff just got absorbed without realising and still applies and trips me up still. Like code running in the background that I don't realise is there and still controlling and working.
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@pathfinder Yes. Those things or level of things people rationalize out of their lives while we keep on trying to do because doing otherwise would be a “lack of integrity” or “laziness” - it’s no wonder people end up with #AutisticBurnout @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
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@jeanoappleseed @pathfinder @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
,
sorry, withdrawn, I’m not
bringing anything good yet today
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@jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
It's the classic differentiation between how we process information and instructions and how allistics tend to.
As fact seekers, information for us tends to be seen entirely on its own merits and is either factual or not, to be accepted or not, on that basis.
Communication for allistics tends to be more about the intent and the interpretation of it and is therefore more flexible and about the spirit of the thing rather than its literal meaning.
So what we learnt and took to be a hard and fast rule, for everyone else may only have seemed to be a guideline and we never, of course, realised and have been busting our guts trying to follow something to the letter, that was never meant to be.
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@pathfinder @jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic Nailed it as always. I like giving my own guidelines at work. I put people in 2 categories. Sarcastic or Serious. I tell them which group they are in for me, and then ask them to tell me if they are doing the opposite to the usual, otherwise I will go with my categories and act appropriately. Makes it easier for me, and makes people think before they make comments. As for facts, I find it hard trusting things I read or see without knowing if the speaker is knowledgable on the subject, free from bias, evidencial. If its media, I use independant checkers such as this https://fullfact.org/
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@Aspiedan @jeanoappleseed @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Checking facts becomes second nature to many of us. Although even as children I suspect that we more cautious, depending on the source of course.
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@jeanoappleseed @pathfinder @AnAutieAtUni
Putting others before self can be devastating to those who already, always, and to self detriment do.
It can encourage the tiny few who might adjust and rarely, or haven't learned how, to think of others.
The few times I ever stood up for myself, I was told to think of others. I always think of others first. One reason my physical disabilities are so advanced.
Take care.
Their message wasn't for you, even though they never told you that.
Interestingly, late in high school, I had a teacher tell me a few times that a specific message wasn't for me. It was for most, though not all, of the class. It wasn't just thinking of others first, some of the other things, homework had to be done, asking for help, and more.
Luckily, she realized I didn't always get that message, so sent me to the library, so she could have a good chat with class who couldn't follow directions, or needed extra help.
I wish I had understood more then.
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@jeanoappleseed @pathfinder @actuallyautistic You absolutely nailed it. Thank you for sharing this 💗 It really does feel like I hold these values strongly and inflexibly. Argh!
Determined to find a balance with this and start to challenge these values. I must!
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@AnAutieAtUni And you will. Btw I joined a support group and our next session is Wednesday so I will try and raise this issue with the group. @pathfinder @actuallyautistic
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@AnAutieAtUni Thank you
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
View from an old person: you can submit that work whenever you like. And work at whatever pace is best for you. Criterion is whatever allows you to flourish.
In this situation are there any benefits to be had from submitting work that is way above the expected standard? I did this (unintentionally!) in an undergrad unit I took as a single subject & it got me fast tracked to a PhD - that saved my life by enabling me to leave a toxic workplace while still providing for my family. Did it again for my honours thesis bc that was fun. Sounds as if you’re already on the path for your higher degree so nett benefit from overachieving may not reward the work?
Sometimes it’s so obvious we don’t fit where we are. The aims I’ve worked to, always, are ‘what do I need to do to survive?’ & ‘how can I have the most fun?’ Once survival is in track, fun is the measure.
Enjoy it!!
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic What I do is I decide the resources I'm going to use, and then do my best within those resources.
So for example, I give myself two days, and figure out what's realistic in two days, and do that as well as I can. With leeway of course, I might go a little over, but the deciding the scope of the work and trying to loosely stick to it is what counts.
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@paperipolitiikkaa That’s great advice! Thank you.
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@paperipolitiikkaa @AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
Following.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic I am in no position to say anything useful here and I'm very sensitive about my own relationship with these issues. I wonder, though, if there is anything transferable from personal activities that you are comfortable with doing enough of? Sorry if that is missing your point and not being helpful. As I was reading your post I found myself wondering why I am like that with some tasks and not others. Or maybe it's everything, but if my personal activities are not of interest to anyone else, then it goes unnoticed 🤔
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@AnAutieAtUni Honestly, it sounds like you already know what to do here it's the implementation that's the hard bit. The one thing that stopped me being a workaholic was booking time to rest, time when I wasn't allowed to work, that made that panic over perfectionism and always doing my best less important and easier to manage. It took a long time and a lot of practice and I'm not always good at it. With time it has become more natural and the quality of my work has improved because of it.
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@vulgalour I try to book time for most things. I’m a little cheap when it comes to winding-down time though @AnAutieAtUni
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic if you solve this, I want in on the answer please. My standards for myself are way beyond what they should be, but I fail to be able to compromise and do lots of self loathing. I just cant seem to do anything else
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic I can give you the perspective from an employer (small business)
First, you're gut feeling is "awful" because this is an awful position to take.
The problem is that your definition of quality is flawed.
If your job is to build a house, and you're given 100k plus 6 months, you need to decide how to build the best house for 100k in 6 months.
If you don't finish it in 6 months, nobody's going to live in your house with no roof and you won't get paid. (and your employer will get sued)
If you go over budget, you may not get paid, and your employer may need to eat the cost and he most certainly won't get any referrals from that job.
So, you design the best quality house that you can in the time and money constraints you are given.
If you don't turn in an exam, you get a zero, even if you finished it perfectly 10 days late. You still fail.
That said, if you can build a quality house, your employer knows it. So if you make a shitty house, they WILL know it.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic also, you seriously need to recognize that you're currently surrounded by the most inexperienced people in the entire workforce.
do you get that? I've got a degree and have been in my industry for 20ys. Not teaching it, but literally using the languages as they are born.
Someone coming out of university into my business is automatically the absolute worst employee. I don't care if they came out of MIT with a PhD, they are going to be the least experienced and least capable and most likely to fuckup and not know how to recover
Seriously.
Oh, and delete this post, because employers will review social media and if we see something like this, well.... you're not going to be getting the job.
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@coldfish Interestingly, this is a little bit of a different situation. If this was an undergraduate degree, then I’d totally agree on the inexperience. You’re so right there. I just completed my undergraduate degree last year and I’m in my 40s with career experience already, but most students went into their undergrad with maybe only a year max of work experience after high school.
[I’m typing the following stuff out for mostly my benefit to think all this through! Please don’t feel you need to read it or respond - I’m very grateful for your post as it helped me think of all this… typing it out is helping practice a mindset shift…]
But this is a postgraduate degree and almost everyone is working full-time alongside this, most of them in jobs that directly relate to the advanced course subject. It’s a top university and School in the UK, so unfortunately for me and my mindset challenge - haha! - they’re all top achievers. Some just doing the degree “for fun” - their words! I’ve been in vaguely related work for 15-20 years, too, but not in this way.
But - thank goodness - I am not trying to compare myself to them, compete with them, or be the same as them. I do have a tendency to adopt other people’s mindsets that are around me - like most people do, subconsciously - but I don’t actually WANT to emulate them.
My motivations for this degree are different to them, too. Yes, I want to degree and skills, but I am not doing this for a promotion, ‘for fun’, to formalise priori experience… this is about doing a conversion degree to start me off in advanced skills that I can apply in a very wide range of industries.
So, it’s about starting my learning journey, rather than proving my learning.
And, this all sounds like I’ve got it covered… but putting this into action is so damn hard!! I have literally zero deadlines. I can do this 12 month degree in 3 years if I want, but I do NOT want!
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@coldfish Love this analogy. Thank you! Even though I have no deadlines and only coursework, I still have a final deadline so must meet my own self-imposed milestones to get there.
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@AnAutieAtUni @actuallyautistic
You can do your honest best work recognizing the constraints you may be under for any specific task. Others in this thread have said it better than me and here's my stab at it.
It sounds a little like your current perception of the constraints for your best are fairly unlimited right now. Or at least limited only by the constraints of your past experience which are in environments where you are meant to have high quality inputs and enough time and be high-achieving with them. So when you think of "your best" that is limited to the experience and optimism that you carry within you about how highly you can achieve, or, practically, unlimited.
I really like this movie clip from the film Apollo 13 to illustrate the mindset shift. Your future industry tasks are not going to be producing some theoretical "best". Your tasks are going to be working to produce the most high quality output within the time and materials that you have. It will almost certainly not be as pretty or useful as you think you can make but it will be the thing people need at the time they need it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry55--J4_VQ
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@AnAutieAtUni I have been a do best, even working more hours to get there. Burnouts really aren't a reward for the effort. I have learned through that experience, to put down the brush, as it were. It took decades. Don't do that. Your physical and mental health are as important as good grades.
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@Tooden Thank you 🌷
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@AnAutieAtUni fantastic question, relevant to Many of us. thank you
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