[#]ClimateDiary Ok this may come across as privileged conplaining - i mean, i have a feeling it does, whixh is kind of indicative in itself, because really it shouldn’t:
we just got our first #EV and whilst waiting to have our own charger installed (which is expensixe and you need to have off-road parking space), we are using public charging points and: the infrastructure here in the UK is crap! It’s either very very slow (like these ones in a local car park (also flooded, inside, today) 1/3
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[#]ClimateDiary #EV 2/3 like 36 hours for a 80% charge (2kw/h); or it’s extremely expensive. As in 2x more expensive than petrol.
I am not surprised that the take up has been so much slower than was hoped. The whole “it’s only for rich people” critique is very valid: it only makes any kind of economic sense if you can charge at home, which exlcudes many. It’s really crap and depressing in itself.
Now bracing myself for no doubt many responses pointing out that #EVs are not the solution.
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[#]ClimateDiary #EV #EVs
3/3 Yes, I KNOW. I have read a lot about it; have had students doing dissertations about #EVs; i am aware of environmental and social costs of production. Etc.
I personally hate all cars. If it were up to me we wouldn’t have one at all. But i am not the only one in this family and so we do. An #EV is a kind of compromise.
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@pvonhellermannn My hope - and it's purely hope, not something I've researched - is that growing adoption of EVs by wealthier people will shift culture and economics enough that some people lessen or eliminate their car dependency (because EVs prompted them to rethink & take action), while others shift from fossil to electric as economies of scale improve. I've seen that culture shift here in California, and I'm somewhat optimistic it's playing out elsewhere too.
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@pvonhellermannn But yep, I sympathize re the rough edges. I started out unable to charge my EV at home, since I lived in an apartment, and had to depend on a then-sparse public charging network. I enjoyed the challenge, for the most part, but it was a challenge. These days almost anywhere I would consider going by car has a robust charging infrastructure, and highest pricing is still competitive with driving/fueling a hybrid fossil electric.
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@graham_freeman thank you for all this! Reallybuseful to know. I have a feeling the UK might be particularly bad, somehow, with high prices for fast charging.
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@pvonhellermannn You are increasing my temptation to get a plug-in hybrid as our next car. They seem to be the best & the worst of all the solutions for those - like us - who have to have a car.
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@MikeFromLFE Nah. I happily agree with my Australian relatives needing independence from well-spaced charging infrastructure. But whoever thought England was big??
Maybe play with the numbers about your usual journey patterns, and occasional needs. My own guess, so far, is that 64kwh (250 miles range in summer) allows us to do 90% charging at home. @pvonhellermannn
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@Tony_Meredith @pvonhellermannn I personally agree with you, but the person who has the purse strings in the house has the usual (wrong) prejudice against EVs and I'm losing the will to convince her
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@pvonhellermannn This year will be my 10th year of EV driving and it feels like charging in the UK has really improved the last couple of years with plenty of sites with 12 to 36 rapid chargers. Beware of old single and double charger sites that have been left to rot, never plan a stop at anything by Charge Your Car or GeniePoint (ChargePoint?) will inevitably be useless. Plugshare and ZapMap are very handy for looking for charge stops, DO NOT trust anything that route plans your charges.
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@pvonhellermannn
Public chargers are expensive, yes. Zapmap can help to choose.
Our home charger (Zappi) is much quicker than you describe, and wonderfully cheap. So, since our pattern is about 90% charging at home, we're happy EV owners (since June).
Yes, also agree, it's about physical space for home charging and up-front affordability for more people.
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@pvonhellermannn I'm getting my first EV in a few weeks. Didn't realise the slow chargers are that slow or that rapid chargers are that expensive!
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@davidnjoku i know! I didn’t realise either. It may be that things are particularly bad here in (provincial) Eastbourne. But it’s definitely worth checking out your local infrastructure and what it’s like now. For example, our local Waitrose used to have free charging, now it’s the most expensive (this is the 4x more expensive model). Hope provisions are better where you live. But i have a feeling a lot of companies are extorting as much possible and it’s 😡. It should be cheap!
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@pvonhellermannn The big Sainsbury's just installed lots of rapid chargers. Back in the day it used to be a marketing ploy to get you to shop with them instead of Tesco, and so it used to be close to free. Now it's really expensive.
I'm hoping the free-ish council run charger down by the local shops is fast enough to give me a fair charge in a few hours.
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@davidnjoku @pvonhellermannn Hmm, the only way I'd get a 36 h charge time is by using the home socket cable, for a 230V socket. Which I do carry, for emergencies... But no fixed wall charger should be that slow! Even with a slow charger, you should expect to be done in 5-8 hours. It really sounds like something is broken with that one (might not be a transient fault, it might be installed wrongly/ poorly planned).
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@skolima Thanks. It's a relief to hear that.
@pvonhellermannn
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@davidnjoku @skolima yes, i think it is an unusually slow charging place. But it sped up a bit. We got 10% in 4 hours in the end!
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@skolima @davidnjoku @pvonhellermannn some chargers derate to 3.3kW around my home. On a big battery, that may explain 20+ hours charging time. But it's unusual. Slow chargers should be 7.4kW, meaning 6 to 12 hours to charge.
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@gileri @skolima @davidnjoku
This one was 2Kw. It then went up to 3kw for a bit. Good to know that this is not the norm!
Our nearst fast charger is 79p/kw. Whixh makes it 2x more expensive than petrol, per mile (not 4x, o got that wrong abkve, will edit). Again, learning from resppnses that normally fast charging is 75p/kw.
It seems like Eastbourne may have particularly bad #EV provisions. Good to know it’s better elsewhere, but frustrating that it’s so prohibitive here.
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@pvonhellermannn @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku I’ve never found an AC charger with less than 10kW power in my travels through continental Europe. Takes max 8 hours to charge my car’s battery, or 22 minutes on a fast DC charger (5-85%). The main hassle I think is juggling charging cards and apps to get the best prices, as well as non-functional charging stations.
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@RalphBassfeld @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku
Yes, my original post was about the UK, not Europe, which i amsure is much better. It now seems like our local set up here in Eastbourne is bad even for UK standards.
I was trying to express that this is typical of the UK - terrible public infrastructure, everything privatised; and how this makes it impossible for people without offstreet parking to take up #EVs HERE. No comment on EVs per se.
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@pvonhellermannn @RalphBassfeld @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku
Still mostly private infrastructure — home chargers and fee-based commercial sites (including car dealerships as well as those shopping site chargers) — in the US as well. The commercial sites are more plentiful in urban areas, so it's possible to find one's self in a near desert situation re. chargers in large parts of the country. And you can almost always count on some chargers being out of service. Still, the situation is improving
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@pvonhellermannn @RalphBassfeld @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku
I was a bit shocked by UK's lack of infrastructure a few years ago. Here in France, there's still a long way to go, but it's a gigantic way ahead of the UK. It seems that MyopicMaggie's dreams still reign.
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@gsymon @RalphBassfeld @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku yes! You have expressed succinctly and elegantly exactly what i tried to say (and didn’t really manage to convey). This is exactly it.
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@pvonhellermannn @RalphBassfeld @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku
Ha! You get a New Year's hug 🤗 for being so sweet Pauline.
I lived through Maggie'sMayhem in London in the 80s. I could probably write a book about it ... except, with my being inclined towards 'succinct' it would probably be 3 pages long. 😊
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@pvonhellermannn @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku "2Kw. It then went up to 3kw for a bit" ... if it's charging more cheaply, my guess is it's regulating according to the spot price of electricity. The only other reason I can come up with is, it's sensing car or charger too hot somewhere, and slowing ... but at 3 kW max that's v. unlikely.
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@pvonhellermannn @gileri @skolima @davidnjoku "spot price of electricity" even when you have own charger, you may be faced with that:
"We need car tomorrow"
"But the electricity price is going to be high all night...."
Do you know what your tariff options are yet?
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@wavesculptor @pvonhellermannn @skolima @davidnjoku A 2-3kW charger that's two times more expensive than petrol per mile (see first posts) is theft. Wouldn't be suprised if they also massively overprovision charging power.
An adjacent note : car charging efficiency usually decrease when you charge real slow. Meaning it's even more expensive and slower to charge very slowly than let's say 11kW. Cars lose as much as 10-20% of incoming power in such conditions.
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@gileri @pvonhellermannn @skolima @davidnjoku "charging efficiency usually decrease when you charge real slow" -- that's counterintuitive to my ee knowledge. Reliable source please.
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@wavesculptor @pvonhellermannn @skolima @davidnjoku
I can search that for you. Can you share yours ?
It comes down to three factors : power supply are usually less efficient at low loads, batteries have lower internal resistance when warm (they get warmer if charging a bit faster) and there are fixed consumptions during charging : cooling pumps and fans, onboard computer etc.
Here's one, which is dated (2014), but results won't be very different today :
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f13/vss096_francfort_2013_o.pdf
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@wavesculptor @pvonhellermannn @skolima @davidnjoku
Perhaps you were thinking of AC vs DC (high power) charging ? I was talking about charging at 1-2kW vs something like 7 or 11. Not 30+kW.
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@wavesculptor @pvonhellermannn @skolima @davidnjoku
Here are consecutive charges on my Model 3. and all recent AC charges.
=> View attached media | View attached media
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@gileri
As usual with these understanding-gaps, there's more than 1 issue involved, and all broken. I'm not an e-car specialist - I don't even have a car on the road any more! But a deep ee background. Then terminology mismatch: the ac street points aren't chargers!_ : they're charging points : places where you can plug your ev built-in charger and get elec billed to you.... So any conversion losses are totally in your vehicle: you pay for your lower efficiency; but if your your high-power inverter is running at low power cos the grid wont give you any more, the supply has kind-of forced you there. Or rather, your car maker, by not providing efficient inverters for each of low current grid ac, mid V mid current grid ac, and any other matching needed for hvdc. Any good inverter runs at ~90% at its rated load, dropping with current out as overheads dont reduce pro-rata. And of course the other battery temperature stuff you mention. There was also a lot of other stupid stuff in the Idaho study, about "key-on" charging at low power. Why would anyone do this? Crazy efficiencies.
Hope this helps a few others on the way, as been suggested! Thanks for further posts.
@pvonhellermannn @skolima @davidnjoku
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@pvonhellermannn I’m not sure how you get 4x more wspxneice, even at 75p/kWh my back-of-the-envelope calculations on replacing my 35mpg car don’t give me that kind of number. The charging is a horrible expensive mess though, not helped by 20% VAT and slow chargers often also costing 75p/k. I’m wondering if we can set up community chargers in my area, somehow using people’s off-road parking, because even the council stuff is 50p/kWh.
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@cornelius that was my husband to be honest, who said it was 4x as expensive - i still need to get my head around it all ( i haven’t even driven it yet). Will double check the figures!
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@pvonhellermannn Hope you enjoy the driving! I was delegated to choose our EV and OH waived her right to test drive too. Fortunately, I chose well. @cornelius
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@pvonhellermannn @cornelius RAC ran this story
media.rac.co.uk/pressreleases/…
And fleetnews reported on Louise Haigh speaking at transport select committee
fleetnews.co.uk/news/governmen…
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@pvonhellermannn so just for the record, this kind of calculator seems to be telling me I was paying about 18p/mile with my 35mpg car. So I think even at 75p/kWh and 4 miles per kW, I’m about even. And anything else is better. But hope I’m getting that right! https://fuelcostcalculator.uk
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@cornelius i checked with husband and i got it wrong - he had said 2x as expensive. This was bjs calculation: 79p/kwh (that’s how much it costs here) - full charge around 81 of these: £64 for around 300 miles. Whixh js roughly 2x as much as petrol. But will curck again with your calcator: thanks for that!
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@pvonhellermannn If you're looking at it like an experiment and aware of the issues, go for it. It's those who buy and tote #EVs s and hence themselves as the saviours of humankind that get the most flack I hope. Least bad option if you've got the possibility seems reasonable.
FFS I've got a friend who - probably nudged by my example - has bought an expensive off-the-shelf #eBike and parked it up for the winter, continuing to use guzzling 4x4. Me: "What winter? It's Portugal and 13 C outside."
Then there's also those EV owners who invest in all this kit with vast embedded cost and energy and hardly use it. Like an #intentionalCommunity I was associated with in UK, some of whose members bought one then put a way-too high club-value on it so that it sat in the car-park nearly all the time while other members chugged around on their daily local errands in filthy old diesels.
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@wavesculptor @pvonhellermannn
Distressing to read of these developments (buying expensive e-bikes but not using them!) But I am finding this whole discussion super useful - so many things I hadn't thought of, but the need for supportive infrastructure is my key takeaway (my country is Australia but I'm not sure how well we're doing). 🙂
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@pvonhellermannn
Do you have the Chargemap app on your phone?
Ive found it invaluable when travelling.
The EV infrastructure is so much better here in France, I recently bought my car to the UK and public chargers are infrequent, insufficient numbers and sometimes bit working. Hope this will improve soon.
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@Sarahw yes - i do think it’s much better in other countries - just frustrating and depressing that’s it’s so bad here. Yes, over time, with app etc it will bi doubt grt better, but first experiences are really bad. Also discovering that many don’t work, as you say. But will get there!
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@pvonhellermannn Sorry for commenting again, but the complexities of public charging haven't been that bad for us. A funeral trip last week meant I wanted/needed to battle a dodgy extra app for charging precisely where I chose before travelling back; but, we noticed on the way home than at least one M6 service station has upgraded since the summer.
IMO it's worth it.
@Sarahw
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@pvonhellermannn @Sarahw EV owner since 2017 here; things will be much better once you have your own charger at home and can leave the car overnight to fill up at sensible prices.
Public infrastructure is very expensive; it is frustrating to see energy companies ripping off consumers at high speed chargers in an attempt to depress EV sales and maintain their petroleum biz...
Hopefully the UK will become less dependent on gas for electricity generation and unit prices will reflect that 🙂
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@pvonhellermannn
It's very location dependant, but holy crap electricity is expensive in the UK. Down under in Australia we charge from home on the overnight rate, now, but even when I was charging publicly I had access to a couple of places to charge for free or cheap at 7kw. A couple of hours (on a half empty battery) and I was done.
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@pvonhellermannn a few thoughts:
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@alstonvicar thank you! It’s ok for me - we’ll hopefully have our charger installed this Thursday. Which is indeed significantly cheaper. I was just commenting on how the current set up in the UK/Eastbourne is really prohibitive for anyone who can’t charge at home = only for the more well-off. Which it shouldn’t be. It was a comment on: now i understand why take-up has been muxh slower than hoped. Early days, as many replied, but we don’t have time; it should all be in place and it isn’t.
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@pvonhellermannn I'm sure you have already thought of this, but on the off-chance you have not...
Do take a look at changing your electricity tariff - there are some that let you charge an EV at night for < 10p/kwh - which is a lot cheaper than petrol. This is 3x cheaper than the 'normal' tariff.
Our EV charges cheaply at home over night, with occasional charges on public infra on longer trips.
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