Yes, nazi salutes can hurt you. But nazi policies can hurt you much more.
How're people more agitated by a nazi salute than by nazi policies? I don't get it.๐คท๐ฟโโ๏ธ
๐จ๐ผ"Well, now it's open fascism!"
Why is closed fascism any better? The same policies are happening.
Your assignment hasn't changed: Protect the most vulnerable.
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@mekkaokereke Uhmm so you think the previous government was Nazis too?
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@kimschulz
"So you think pancakes are waffles?"
Nowhere in my post did I even hint at the previous administration. I have literally thousands of posts criticizing the previous administration. You can go through each and every one of them and see if I called the previous administration nazis even once. My numerous criticisms of the previous administration are in no way unclear. I have been extremely, excruciatingly, specific.
This post is about people being concerned over a nazi salute.
I said what I said. Nazi salutes can't hurt you. Nazi policies can.
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@mekkaokereke @kimschulz So what exactly does "the same policies" refer to if not the previous administration? Clearly you're not a clear as you think in your communication.
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke it reads pretty clearly to me - closed fascism has the same policies as open fascism.
You're giving pretty hardcore reply guy energy here.
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@tim @kimschulz @mekkaokereke So back to my question: was the previous administration closed fascism? That's all I am asking. Fascism is pretty well defined as a term so the unclearity of the post made me confused about what was really meant. Simple question really.
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@kimschulz @tim
Kim, the previous administration is what you want to talk about.
That's not what I want to talk about.
The only problem is, this is my timeline, and my thread.
But there's an easy solution! In Mastodon, each user has the ability to create their very own timeline, and their very own threads! That way, everyone can discuss whatever topic they want, without derailing another conversation! Brilliant!
So my suggestion: make a new post posing the questions: "Was the Biden administration nazis? Were they closed fascism?" Post that, and I will boost it! I promise! That way, everyone that wants to have that conversation can join in, over there.
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@mekkaokereke @kimschulz @tim But you could just have answered the simple question ๐คทโโ๏ธ I don't care about old or new administrations. I care about policies that makes the life better for the man on the floor, the working man and everyone that cares and attends to mother earth.
But you wanted to be mister smarty-pants and ignore a simple question just to continue to muck a person you dont know - all why claiming to care about others. Ironic.
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke @tim
"Why aren't you answering my question that isn't about what we're talking about" has some serious Ben Shapiro energy.
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@jargoggles @kimschulz @mekkaokereke @tim
When i see a person this thirsty to make someone else look wrong, i feel pretty good clicking that block button
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke @tim if you dont care...then why demand an answer?
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke
Well, dunno about the rest of you but policies like locking up people by the millions and supporting genocide do seem pretty Nazi to me. Does me pointing that out offend you more than the policies do?
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@violetmadder @kimschulz @mekkaokereke I am not offended at all. I asked to get a better understanding of an unclear post. Supporting genocide has always been a thing american presidents have seemed to like.
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@kimschulz
Everyone else got it except for you.
And I'm not rewriting what I wrote just for you.
If a teacher teaches a lesson, then gives a test, and all students get an A except for one student who got an F? That's very sad for that one student.
Everyone learns differently. I would agree that the way the teacher explained it might not have been clear for that one student. I can see how that one student might genuinely think that the best approach is for the teacher to change their whole lesson plan and teaching style, to be more clear for them as an individual.
But that's not going to happen.
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@mekkaokereke @kimschulz And now you just described one of the reasons why the US school system is failing so miserable.
And, how would you really know that everyone else understood it? I mean, most dont really care or just ignores it for being an unclear rant
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke Your assumption that he was referencing the previous administration (who have been described as lots of things, but rarely - and never by OP - as being Nazis) in as opposed to the explicitly fascist and Nazi endorsing incoming one is your issue. It was not unclear or equivocal, and your response showed zero reflective rather than defensive thinking.
Stay in the now, have the maturity to say, โoh, I didnโt get thatโ and move on or block.
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@Caution
I didn't assume anything. I asked a simple question if that was what he meant. It wasn't clear to me and I wanted to understand exactly what was meant. No hidden agenda, no endorsement of any administration , nothing. Just a simple question.
@mekkaokereke
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@kimschulz I follow @mekkaokereke because he can communicate about American politics in a very clear way that few other people around here can match.
I recommend just listening to his feed for a while before injecting your own unrelated agenda. You might learn something.
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@juergen_hubert
Thats the thing. There were no agenda beyond getting clarification. But everyone are on their guards and think there is an agenda ๐คทโโ๏ธ
@mekkaokereke
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke I understood perfectly fine, so maybe it's just you.
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@kimschulz @mekkaokereke as an "english as third" language person...it was pretty clear to me...
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@mekkaokereke it signals intent?
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@Kierkegaanks
Follow that thought through: intent to do what?
Intent to enact nazi policies.
But... they have already, vocally, and literally, very publicly expressed that intent to enact those policies.
In fact, they promised to enact those policies.
If a dog is already biting your leg and shaking its head viciously from side to side, don't worry about if it's barking or not. Yes, barking can be a sign of aggression... but that dog has already "expressed intent" to bite you. Because it's biting you right now. You don't need to panic. You don't need to despair. You just need to know what to do when a dog bites your leg. And "listen for barking!" or "these are other common signs of dog aggression!" don't really play into protecting yourself from an ongoing dog attack. Staying calm does.
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@mekkaokereke most voices that are being heard have been hammering that he was bolstering for the optics and so on. Now the door is closed behind the gullible dolts and we see this
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@mekkaokereke @Kierkegaanks Yeah, none of this is surprising to anyone who has paid attention.
The Americans who voted for Trump have voted for a fascist takeover, and a fascist takeover is what they got.
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@mekkaokereke Nazis salutes are good! Letโs get the intentions out in the open, so people can wake up about the Nazi policies
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@wonkothesane
I've noticed that a lot of the Nazi policies seem to be very popular.
Maybe the problem is not that people don't know they're Nazi policies, but that they do.
@mekkaokereke
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@wonkothesane @mekkaokereke I'm divided on this. I agree that policies do not change, whether their excuse for not an ideology is out in the open or cowardly hidden. I also agree that the blatant openness renders denial impossible or ridiculous. What terrifies me though is that they are no longer afraid to show off. They seem to think this is their Final Victory or something. The only good thing about that: hybris usually precedes the downfall.
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@ulfr @wonkothesane
They think they're unstoppable now, because they have the Executive branch, the Legislative branch, and the Judicial branch, all in line.
Their opponents think they're not unstoppable.
One of the two groups is wrong.๐คท๐ฟโโ๏ธ
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@mekkaokereke I sure hope the 14th can handle this, or else the 2nd might have to pick up the slack. I guess we'll see, whether we like it or not.
The thought of a lot of the wrong people getting hurt keeps sickening me, though the cynic in me would all but decry the entire kleptokakistocracy meeting the business end of an "anti-material" rifle, funny ambiguity and all. Which works even more efficiently if they are "all in line" โ several birds with each stone, DOGE should approve! Alas, not very realistic.
@wonkothesane
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@wonkothesane @mekkaokereke Itโs not good when these folks think they can do Nazi things openly without repercussions. Itโs better when they feel they have to hide it or refrain from it because they will get in trouble otherwise.
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@mekkaokereke
I'm going to have to say the brazenness of it. as a Jewish (culturally not religiously) I know there are nazi and nazi adjacent policies. But When you see this. well, let me just say it reaffirms my decision to own firearms. Logically it just shows a progression, an escalation. You make a solid point to be sure. And I do back my 'assignment' But the emotional component is there
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@mekkaokereke The policies are what matters the most, I agree, but I find it very bad in the sense that it is performative and symbolic communication to a specific crowd that shows intent, rallies them to a common cause and normalizes the whole thing, makes them ready for worse types of communication and propaganda.
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@mekkaokereke it's not the same policies. The Nazis have a list of new policies because the old ones haven't been oppressive enough to their targets.
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@mekkaokereke
I don't think "agitated" is the right word.
But the reason it excites people is because it's a lot harder to deny people are fascists when they wear the symbols of fascists, and we have a lot of fascism denial in this country.
This is the kind of thing that could maybe wake up the blase white bible-belter to the what they've wrought.
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@louis
Before Trump was inaugurated in 2016, nazis gave lots of speeches around the country and in DC that were covered by mainstream press, where they did lots of nazi salutes.
Fox News anchors have done similar nazi salutes on stage at other points during Trump's term.
Nazis have been floating around CPAC for years.
I don't see how this is a big difference from those. Like, why is this any more undeniable?
(And no I'm not sharing those videos links. We all know what a nazi salute looks like).
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@mekkaokereke Because, afaik, those nazis never saluted on-stage at a Trump event.
People respond to symbology. If Trump says "deport all immigrants", people say "eh, he doesn't mean it." But if he says it while wearing a swastika armband, those folks sit up and start paying attention.
There's a reason the high-profile nazis in this country typically avoid those symbols like the plague, at least when not behind closed doors.
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@louis
One was literally on stage at the RNC, in a speech honoring Trump.
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@mekkaokereke Are you referring to the Ingraham one? If so, watch again and notice how she at least has the shame to hide it and make it ambiguous. Whenever they do it in public, there's always a mask, an excuse, something to give the average person an out to say "oh that wasn't really a nazi symbol."
But Elon's was blatant and unequivocal, even coming from the chest first. It was shameless and unmasked, and that might make the difference.
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@louis
Yes that's one. Another is that the Alt-Right was literally founded by a person that does nazi salutes and wants to ethnically cleanse the US to turn it into a "whites only ethno-state." His words. His plan to do this is through policy at first. His best friend from Duke university, now sets US immigration policy. Again.
All of this has been publicly available knowledge for the past 8 years.
I think some people are still holding out hope that the supporters of these policies would reject them if they only knew that they were ethnic cleansing policies. I... don't have that hope.
The only thing that I've observed that makes people that support these policies decide not to support these policies any more, is when they experience that these policies harm themselves too. It's selfishness, not empathy, or caring about other people, or rejection of fascism, that makes them change.
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... don't deport my family members."
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... let me hire H1-Bs."
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... keep funding Ukraine's military."
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... don't bankrupt my agribusiness."
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... I need my government job, so I hope it's not eliminated."
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... I need this health insurance, so I hope they leave ACA alone."
"I hope they crush our enemies! But... California needs FEMA help, so I hope they don't take that away."
Etc.
Each group wants fascism for others, even when the fascists promise a little fascism for them too.
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@mekkaokereke There is undeniably a large sect of people who are exactly like you describe. This won't convince them.
The folks I think it would convince are the ones who don't really pay attention to politics other than what they hear other folks talking about around the water cooler. The ones who vote, not as an informed decision, but rather as a social function. The ones who feel left behind in life, but are too stupid or lazy to identify who exactly is leaving them behind.
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@mekkaokereke FWIW, I appear to have been quite wrong about this.
I posted it where some of my right-wing family could see it, and they're mostly writing it off as a fabrication of CNN and MSNBC, ignoring their own eyes.
I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick a football.
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@louis
Yup...
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@louis @mekkaokereke This is how I feel about climate disasters. I used to think โwhen the shit really hits the fan, it will be too late, but they will have to admit climate change is real.โ And here we are, LA went up in flames, and they are saying the problem is woke firefighters.
They are choosing not to believe their own eyes and ears.
It is, however, very relevant to note down who is telling you not to believe your eyes and ears. Many are centrists who should be discredited forever.
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@louis @mekkaokereke
One of my former colleagues is a former conservative and he posted it to FB outraged about it and all of his family and friends are jumping all over him about misinformation, misleading still images, defamation, leftist lies, etc. etc.
"I wonder how you would do if someone had a camera on you 24/7 willing to take anything out of context, hm??"
This is who they are now. Who a lot of them always were.
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@q_aurelius @louis @mekkaokereke
It's like we have two completely different forms of cognition at work here.
I don't want to go saying either one is better, because we know where that kind of idea goes -- but I do know which one I feel safer around.
What do we do about this? It kind of shatters a fundamental premise of democracy.
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@q_aurelius @louis @mekkaokereke
This sounds exactly like the kind of behavior thatโs apparently typical of people whoโve been conned and are presented with evidence of the con. They double down.
Thereโs a scene in the life of Ponzi (the actual guy) where a crowed showed up demanding their money back, and left having given him even more money. They had enough doubt to march there, and they โขstillโข doubled down in the end.
Keep at it. People donโt admit theyโve been conned at the first piece of contrary evidence. It takes sustained, repeated questions that cause doubt. Broken record therapy.
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@louis @mekkaokereke FWIW my people from Eastern Europe, afaict literally all of them, took Musk's Nazi salute very literally and very seriously. None of the "awkward gesture" or "looks like" bullshit. They may be ignorant and dismissive of the slavery and genocide parts of the American history, but the symbols that were used to kill 25% of my people in 1939-1945 are very much a big deal. They now believe I was right to call X sans-serif swastika.
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@mekkaokereke @louis
To further clarify. I am more upset at nazi policies, than a nazi salute. and the reason the nazi thing upsets me is it signals even more nazi policies to come in the future. "but they have already been nazis"
Things can always get worse
Things can always get worse.
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@mekkaokereke @louis Once upon a time I would say things like "Americans refuse to recognize Nazis unless they're literally wearing swastikas or giving Nazi salutes" but I had to refine that to simply "Americans refuse to recognize Nazis."
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@mekkaokereke I think maybe the salute being so blatant is giving still-hopeful people something they think they can use with friends and family who have been supporting Trump. They may be thinking, "Surely THIS will be obvious enough for them to wake up," so they are making a lot of noise about it with that intention. Trying to use Elon's salute to wake grandpa up. We've been saying it's nazis this whole time, and we had friends and family tell us we were overreacting or exaggerating. Now the nazis themselves are owning it. If me making noise about it wakes even one person up, I feel it would be worth it.
[#]uspol
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@mekkaokereke the assignment stays the same, but the stakes are higher. Trump and Musk are fashists no matter what and people will suffer under their policies. But policies scale with the rhetoric and a Nazi salute on day one is IMHO a sign that it will get worse fast. Maybe too fast to be able to protect anyone.
And of course there are the people, who didn't give a fuck but now realise, that it might affect them as well...
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@mekkaokereke It is a signal to his supporters: anything is possible.
Message to the โบMitlรคuferโน: this is now normal. Including the associated measures. That makes a difference. There aren't that many real Nazis. But normal citizens follow the new normal like sheep.
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@mekkaokereke I think people are now finally starting to understand as he is so brazenly open about it. When he changed twitterโs logo to a sans serif swastika they didnโt cotton onโฆ
NASAโs problem with Nazi rocket scientists didnโt end with von Braunโฆ
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@mekkaokereke
Having to be closed/secret is more difficult to do than doing something destructive openly.
Hypothetical
Want to dehumanise some target group?
How much easier is it to do this openly than to do it secretly?
Say100,000 times easier?
Parallels the reason why absolute propriety must be demanded of judges and elected officials.
But America forgot that some time before #SlickWillie chose to put his own interests ahead of his office and lie in court, under oath, while POTUS.
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@mekkaokereke This. ๐ฏ
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@mekkaokereke Well, silent fascism is hiding its facets. Open fascism does not. I for sure do not understand what he thought making such a move... :BlobhajShock:
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@mekkaokereke nah, it's a false dichotomy.
new us administration is fascist, and the first day was already dire for everyone who paid attention.
that musk made a nazi salute during an official government function and was getting applause is one thing; and something that surprises no-one.
that the american press minimised the impact is another thing, and โ again, for anyone paying attention recently โ not a surprise.
that one of the largest organisations nominally existing to fight antisemitism defends him is still significant, no matter what one thinks of that particular organisation.
also, the symbolism of the gesture is still powerful, and you don't need to belittle people who have visceral reaction to seeing it done brazenly in public by a person involved in governance of the united states.
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@mawhrin
Fair. But I'm not belittling anyone. I'm saying that the policies are worse.
We focus too much on performative racism/fascism, and not enough on systemic racism. A governor can add $100M to police budgets, or ban masks, or be vocally anti-DEI, or talk recklessly about Haitians, and nothing happens. But if it comes out that they wore blackface in a yearbook photo, or said the n-word, then everyone says OMG they're racist. I don't understand this either.
Like I said, our assignment hasn't changed. Protect the most vulnerable.
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@mekkaokereke Are there genuinely individual people getting noticeably, relatively more agitated? That would of course be a case of misplaced priorities, but arenโt they just agitated by both. Weโre all different. We all have our different tolerances. Itโs ok for those who feel the need to speak out on both. Nazi words canโt hurt me either, but Iโm glad some people spoke out. Gotta start somewhere. #ItStartedWithWords
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@mekkaokereke OK, for me, it's not that I'm afraid the salute will hurt me. It's that I've been having conversations with friends for months and their typical response is "you're over-reacting, they're not ACTUALLY Nazis"
except they fucking are, and they're saluting on your TV and we're bothered because the norms of 30 or 40 years ago that absolutely would not have allowed that to happen are obviously gone
The assignment hasn't changed. You are correct.
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text/gemini