As your friendly neighbourhood jock-nerd, I'm here to remind you once again that nerds have always been more misogynistic than jocks, and it's not particularly close.
I said what I said.
Y'all act surprised every time this gets revealed to be true.
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@mekkaokereke (I guess it's the first time I hear it).
Any specific reason for that misogyny ?
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@Sobex @mekkaokereke easier to hate women than to conform to societies ideas of "how to be male" 🤷♂️
I'm a nerd and there absolutely was a time when I fully bought into the "friend zone" nonsense and felt slighted by not having a romantic/sexual partner. I'm glad that people enlightened me and I was open enough to actually accept seeing the light so I don't do this toxic bullshit anymore. Not everyone is that lucky.
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@Sobex @mekkaokereke
Take 40 minutes out of your day and watch or listen to the following two essays from Pop Culture Detective.
They are a good start to get into this by dissecting „The Big Bang Theory.“ Then be on the look out from there and you see it all over.
„The adorkable Misogyny of the Big Bang Theory“
https://youtu.be/X3-hOigoxHs?si=Omb-tMXj0KPHA7Eo
„The complicity of Geek Masculinity on the Big Bang Theory“
https://youtu.be/7L7NRONADJ4?si=GD9QpjEmYvrRtZ6h
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@mekkaokereke@hachyderm.io as a woman who's also a nerd (books, boardgames, etc), I know how bad nerds get. It's largely insecurity when they don't measure up to society's standards of what makes one masculine. Many compensate by dialing up the sexism because that's a benchmark they can meet.
Those who otherwise meet the societal definition of masculinity don't have to be assholes because they aren't made to feel insecure. The same systems fucking over women are fucking over nerds and instead of pushing back and realizing we're their allies, they punch down in hope of earning acceptance within those fucked up standards.
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@deathkitten @mekkaokereke I'm reminded of this piece from 2016:
https://uproxx.com/hitfix/if-nerds-won-the-war-for-pop-culture-then-why-are-they-so-angry-all-the-time/
And yeah, you are spot on: a lot of the worst nerd behavior is driven by insecurity, and even if you gain a shred of the self-awareness that can come with age, that insecurity never goes away–you have to consciously resist it, because it's emotionally "safer" to be a bastard than it is to be sincere or vulnerable.
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@mekkaokereke i think some of us that were Assigned Nerd At Birth got used to feeling defensive about it. but dammit I'm not a nerd, I'm a geek!
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@StrangeNoises @mekkaokereke Based on the definitions in this blog post by @glyph: https://blog.glyph.im/2012/10/the-lexicology-of-personal-development.html I aspire to be a nerd, though I admit sometimes I'm more of a geek, particularly about music.
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@mekkaokereke
Evidence: Jocks pull
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@celesteh @mekkaokereke I’m confused. The jocks were throwing homosexual and feminine insults at the nerds, with none in return. Later in life it was always the jocks who revealed to be homosexual themselves, and now are fighting the move from single-sex to co-educational schooling.
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@ckent @celesteh
That said, I spent a lot of my time playing college football arguing with my teammates that football is without a doubt the most homoerotic sport invented by man, and so their homophobia made zero sense. That's like going to a rock concert and complaining that the music is too loud. And I pointed out that the percent of gay people that play football, is almost certainly higher than the percent of gay people in the population of men in general. Because football teams are a great place for gay men that don't want to be found out to hide.🤷🏿♂️
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@mekkaokereke As per: "Meet the Guys: The Jerks of Computer Science" - https://lauren.vortex.com/2017/02/27/meet-the-guys-the-jerks-of-computer-science
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@lauren @mekkaokereke
Our team spent two weeks researching several different options for replacing our aging phone system.
One, when asked generically about call transfers, the youngish sales-bro replied "When your receptionist answers the phone, she...blah, blah". I was already feeling the silent rage when our department head (a woman of my age) sent us all an anger face emoji.
Sale immediately lost.
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@mekkaokereke As a nerd, I can't tell you how quickly I went from full defensive, "No, that's not true, that can't be true!" to "He's totally correct, it's not even close. Why did I even have that initial reaction?"
I suspect my reaction was caused by my own experience of jocks in high school, but that's not misogyny.
As an adult, I've literally had to make HR complaints against male coworkers for things like implying a female coworker's value was in being pregnant. And my company is considered better-than-most for this kind of thing.
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@Azuaron @mekkaokereke The little I did high school sports, I was used to teens of both genders expressing mutual respect for each other's performance. Mutual respect and support was a big part of the ethos.
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@foolishowl @Azuaron @mekkaokereke I was a runner (and tried to be a swimmer too) in high school, and this was my experience. The boys and girls teams totally supported each other at track and cross country and swim meets.
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@mekkaokereke HM!! Such an interesting statement. In my totally unscientific and spur of the moment opinion, I think this mostly holds, but in a specific sense.
I think relatively few nerds genuinely like women, while a good share of jocks do. But the jocks who hate women do so in perhaps a more actively dangerous way, where they really seek to own and control us.
1/2
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@mekkaokereke
Nerd misogyny is caustic and very harmful, but I think more borne of resentment and isolation.
Just a different flavor. Both very gross.
Honestly, it’s so hard to integrate into my deep knowledge that so many men hate us. Even some men who love us, hate us.
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@Jackiemauro
I agree that a lot of nerds don't even like women, or see them as equal human beings with their own agency.
But I think the nerd form of misogyny is both more possessive and more dangerous.
Eg, in my lived experience, nerd answers on these questions are significantly worse than athlete answers:
These are truly dangerous and possessive misogynistic ideas, turning into dangerous and possessive laws and actions. More athletes choose the reasonable answers. Laws eroding women's reproductive rights, and legalising child marriage, and "intellectual" conversations around removing women's rights to even choose a partner, are coming from nerds, not jocks.
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@mekkaokereke i mean, a lot of this obviously depends on where you draw the lines around “Jock” vs. “Nerd”. If I had to sort republican congressmen, for example, they would generally fall into “jock” category. If we’re talking serious athletes vs someone working in tech, that’s a different sort of categorization I think.
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@mekkaokereke
I guess, by “jock” do we mean guys who are naturally athletic and like sports? Or guys whose dads told them they weren’t real men so they started lifting weights and performing hypermasculinity to finally please the hateful men in their lives?
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@mekkaokereke by “nerd” do we mean guys who meet up once a week to play warhammer? Or guys whose dads told them they weren’t real men so they tried to get super rich and convince themselves they’re actually an Ubermensch and everyone else is inferior to them?
… wait there’s a theme.
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@Jackiemauro
That's a great point, and a great question. And I agree that the answers do change a lot depending on how we define jock.
I'm talking about jock in the sense of US big revenue, big participation sports, like basketball and football. The athlete cultures of these sports are largely (inextricably?) intertwined with Black American culture.
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@mekkaokereke In that case I am in FULLLLL agreement. Some of the spaces I’ve felt most comfortable in have been around really serious athletes (esp boxers). But I do love me a warhammer nerd now and then :P
Some of my least comfortable moments were definitely thanks to the nerds when they started being the main presence in the bars I used to go to in SF. UGH.
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@mekkaokereke I loved Revenge of the Nerds when I was a kid but I don't think I could even watch it again now. 🤢
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@mekkaokereke
I would guess it’s because the jocks actually talk to the girls.
Is amazing what actually getting to know people does for your ‘ism’s.
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@taatm @mekkaokereke That's what I was thinking. They kind of get more of a chance to grow out of the ideas they form as teens, when they eventually form long term relationships with women. Which nerds can do too of course and which some jocks fail to do. It's that growing out of it thing that's key I think. So many misogynistic attitudes of adult men sound so juvenile. Sound like the ideas of boys who haven't learned better by experience of the real world.
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@beecycling
You put it very well.
i often have exactly the same impression when i hear or read such statements.
these men have apparently not developed this part of their personality since they were teenagers.
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@mekkaokereke I teach English as a Foreign Language to kids 13 to 18 y.o. My students who see me lift a desk, walk to school or talk about present and past physical activities are more respectful than the ones that get suggestions on OS or keyboards.
I'm fat and in my late forties. I don't even look fit. But reading you, I realise that no teen has ever questioned, or made a joke to my face about my physical abilities. It does happen about computers, regularly.
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@mekkaokereke as someone who was rather awkward in his teens and twenties. I definitely feel like I dodged some bullets here and there where I could have taken a bad turn into full misogyny. I once had a friend parrot some PUA talking points that made me feel so icky that I let that friendship wither..
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@mekkaokereke Anyone who has watched 80s documentary Revenge Of The Nerds is well aware of this.
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@mekkaokereke the jocks never lose their team place to a woman. The nerds do, a woman can literally be better than them.
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@lornajane
Flag football:
This boys' flag football team was undefeated, because the quarterback from the best girls' team in the region, was better than the QB from the best boys' team in the region. So they checked the rules, and it doesn't say that a girl can't play on the boys team. So they added her. She shows up in her pyjamas and unicorn hat, and wins games. A boy lost his spot to her.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MGITEzHQPDk
Ultramarathons:
David Goggins is a tough guy and former Navy SEAL known for running ultramarathons. He competes against women. But the fastest woman is faster than him. On average, the top 50 women are faster than the top 50 men. Sometimes a woman wins the race. Sometimes a man wins. They all compete for the same sponsorship dollars.
https://hachyderm.io/@mekkaokereke/112390652742572486
Powerlifting:
Of Earth's 8 billion people, the most common weight for a man is heavier than 130 lbs. The most common weight for a woman is under 130 lbs. There are about as many men as women at 136 lbs. To compete in powerlifting, it is advantageous to compete at the lowest category that your body will allow. For a 136 lb person, 115 lbs is unreasonable/dangerously low, but 123 lbs is doable. 123 lbs is the most accessible, most universal, most gender neutral powerlifting category.👍🏿
Consider the strength of an elephant versus an ant. Heavy bones help the elephant. But ants don't even need bones. A 300 plus pound powerlifter 🙋🏿♂️ needs a robust skeleton. Drs are shocked at my bone density. But heavy bones are a disadvantage for a 115 lb power lifter. A giant, 50 lb skeleton would be an advantage over 300 lbs, but a disadvantage at 123 lbs.
Testosterone and human growth hormone, help you add muscle and bone, and inter workout recovery rate (lift on Monday, recover, do it again on Wednesday). Estrogen helps you increase your intra workout recovery rate, and mobility (On Monday, do 10 sets at 95% effort, instead of 5 sets). More estrogen allows you to perfect your heavy lifting technique.
Some years, the men's raw 123 lb raw record is held by a man. Some years it's a woman. Men and women at 123 lb compete for the same sponsorship dollars. Marianna holds the all time raw with wraps record.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iFH4yR-mgFs&t=48s
https://www.openpowerlifting.org/rankings/56/by-total
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@lornajane
And because I inevitably get asked these questions by "dudes that don't lift."
👨🏻 "I did a 10-second internet search, and found a man who weighs 123 lbs or less, and who benched, deadlifted, or squatted more than Mariana! Men are stronger!"
Powerlifting is 3 events. Some people are better at benching, others squatting, other deadlifting. A full power of the competition includes all three disciplines. The total score is the sum of all three. Mariana has the total record. Yes there are specialists who are great at one event and don't compete in any of the others. Similarly, Kevin Mayer has to decathlon world record. You can find people that can run faster (Usain Bolt), or shot put further (Crouser), but none of them can beat him over all 10 events.
👨🏻 "Hey I found another guy who's total is higher than Mariana's total! All 3 events! Men are stronger!"
Mariana's total is a "raw with wraps" total. Squatting heavy weight is dangerous on the knees. Some competitions are "raw," meaning you cannot protect your knees or joints at all. Some are "raw with wraps," which means that you can wrap your knees up with a long piece of cloth tape for safety. This does not make you significantly stronger, but it is much safer. This is what Mariana won. Some competitions let you use special canvas lifting suits, that can significantly multiply your strength. Those are different categories. You do not compare suited lifting to non-suited lifting. That's like comparing a mile race time with and without a bicycle.
At some point in the future someone will beat Mariana's record. That person might be a man, or a woman, or non-binary. My point is that all genders compete at powerlifting. And the more someone knows about elite level powerlifting, the more fact based and the less misogynistic their views on powerlifting and bodybuilding and strength training tend to be.
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@mekkaokereke Most people who become these weird s3x fiends were "nerds" who never got female attention and started resenting them. Even worse when those nerds become rich and powerful, that how they turn into the Jeffrey £pst£1ns
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@mekkaokereke the modern wave of neo nazis started with nerds angry about women getting into video gaming so yeah, that checks out
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