this whole right wing movement in europe is so baffling to me because most eu citizens actually got to experience how much better a life can be that doesn’t focus on a single nation. we had 30 years of borderless travel. 20 years of our currency just being the same. and i just don’t understand how anyone would want to get rid of this instead of expanding these freedoms more and more.
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these things are lived experience for most of us. we actually know what it’s like to gain more freedoms. it’s not through old tales, we’ve been there, we felt it. we got to see the happiness of queer people when they were finally allowed to marry each other. how much can you hate humanity? i know all the theory, the papers, the science on why people are like this. but on a purely emotional level this is all so fucking stupid.
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i remember the images of people stepping up and helping refugees arriving at train stations. the being there for each other, the support, the community, the willingness to help, merkel’s proud »we can do this« – and we did! how is this not something to strive for? why would you want to regress? i have no words for what’s happening. how could you not want to help people in need?
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@hagen I imagine there are pressures that people in Germany who are doing okay financially just don't experience
while removing those doesn't stop the racism from the top, it stops the disenfranchised voting against themselves
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@mmby @hagen There are reams of academic papers produced that show who votes fash in Germany and how in the former ddr they are more often than not financially comfortable (with plenty of rich grifters in the fold).
https://www.dw.com/en/who-votes-for-germanys-far-right-party-afd-not-who-youd-think/a-47793722
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@Veza85UE @hagen thanks for the schooling, I'm a little surprised
for others: here is a link (careful pdf) to the report in German
https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.595120.de/diw_sp0975.pdf
it's a little crass that a good predictor is 'male & from East Germany'
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@mmby @hagen my uneducated guess: reactionary sociopathic tendencies are unevenly spread across various groups that fight against (perceived or real) loss of privileges. But the reason wealth is statistically insignificant while gender is not may be that there are far more men resentful of Others (and of having to treat women as human beings) than there are rich or poor people resentful of losing status (or paying taxes), men are half the population.
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@Veza85UE @mmby @hagen I think crucially being well off in the East is a source of resentment: ultimately it's pointless, you are still an Ossie, your region is unattractive, your friends are old and dying.
The fact so much money was spent makes it even more galling.
It's a male thing, I think, to lash out, but it's an old society thing to lash out at foreigners.
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@iinavpov @Veza85UE @mmby please let me stop this discussion and the corresponding notifications: there is no need to speculate because there are plenty of studies out there. it won’t be fixed in my replies.
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Možná máme věnovat méně úsilí (nikoliv žádný!) snahám o porozumění a více času (nikoliv všechen!) konání. Co my, já, ty, on, ona, ono máme dělat. Je to složité. Slovo "my" je složité. Ale dá se tou složitostí prokousat ke konání. Mám v tom směru nějaké návrhy. Hodně souzní s konaním Jean Monnet (-a), jak je popisuje ve svých Pamětech.
@iinavpov @Veza85UE @mmby @hagen
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@tymoty @iinavpov @mmby a ver, yo estoy bastante de acuerdo con lo de problemas de EuroBoomeristan, gente mayor con problemas de existencialismo real o imaginario. Pero en cualquier caso, lo crucial es que alguien tendrá que cuidarlos, alguien tendrá que recoger las cosechas, el funcionamiento básico de la sociedad necesita migrantes.
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@Veza85UE , ano ale...
Nestačí si zatútat, že jsme chytří a víme. Je potřeba víc. Je potřeba konat (Jean Monnet).
Nestačí konat něco. Nestačí konat cokoliv. Nestačí konat dobro.
My, Ty, já, on, ona, ono musíme společně zvolit bod tlaku / směr konání.
Já vím, že slovo "my" je složité. Je to složité. Ale my se tou složitostí můžeme prokousat ke konání.
Mám nějaké návrhy.
@Pierrette @unterwasser #hibrida
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@tymoty @Pierrette @unterwasser Yo ya voto al único gobierno UE que defiende abiertamente las vías legales a la inmigración y explica por qué concede permisos de trabajo (somos viejos, alguien tiene que trabajar, etc) y como esto es muy de competencia nacional, no tengo mucho que hacer con los que rabian contra la inmigración y luego venden visados al mejor postor (PiS) o construyen campos de trabajadores a las afueras de la ciudad o traen policías chinos para patrullar las calles (Hungría).
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@Veza85UE , ano. Máš pravdu. Ano. Ale!
Nestačí mít pravdu.
Nestačí pravdu hájit na Mastodonu.
Je potřeba něco konat.
Nestačí konat něco. Nestačí konat cokoliv. Nestačí konat dobro.
My, Ty, já, on, ona, ono se musíme společně zvolit bod tlaku. Musíme společně zvolit směr konání.
Mám nějaké návrhy.
@Pierrette @unterwasser #hibrida
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@tymoty @Pierrette @unterwasser Estoy de acuerdo, este no es el lugar adecuado. Todos tenemos parientes, vecinos o amigos que a veces necesitan sentirse menos solos o aislados y, aunque yo crecí en internet y estoy contenta con las comunidades en las que puedo sumergirme para divertirme o informarme, todos necesitamos comunidades offline y mostrar a la gente que nos preocupamos por ellos o contribuir a ayudar a los recién llegados a integrarse, etc.
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@Veza85UE , ano, děkuju, ale.
Podle mě není vůbec jasné, co "to" "my" máme vlastně dělat. Tápu. Potřebuju pomoct.
Nestačí dělat něco. Nestačí dělat cokoliv. Nestačí dělat dobro.
"My, Ty, já, on, ona, ono" se potřebujeme sladit do kolektivní akce.
(3) Velké množství nás se musí sladit v tom, který (1) bod tlaku zvolíme a kterým (2) směrem budeme působit.
Mám nějaké návrhy, jak na to.
@Pierrette @unterwasser #hibrida
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@iinavpov @Veza85UE @mmby @hagen I dunno what's so hard to understand about this.
For 35 years, everybody who's had even minimal cognitive capacities had to leave the east German provinces and had to go either to the west or at least into some city in the east because there has been no future at home. Whole areas have been bled dry of intellect (and, consequently, of economic resources) for 35 years. Mostly the morons and incapable stay behind. What did you expect this would do to those areas??
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@iinavpov @Veza85UE @mmby @hagen Note: There are very few western electoral districts with similar social circumstances, but some few are similar, and the AfD is getting lots of votes in these, too.
Apparently, the openness to others correlates with things like education, intellect, social status, and well-being. Whoda thought that?
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@hagen
Fear. Scarcity mindset. The inability to understand and fully comprehend the power that an abundance mindset has.
This planet is abundant. Greed narrows the channel through which it can flow. The obscenely wealthy at the bottleneck are going to literally kill us all.
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@hagen Bigotry is an a-rational force. It defies any bounds set on it by income, education, or vocation.
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@hagen
Only historians remember history, each generation seems to forget and the same patterns take over: fear, manipulation, control, greed. We always say 'never again' but it always happens again.
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@hagen
You nailed it right there: hate.
Hate and rage are such powerful motivators that people will tear down their house onto their own heads to try to satisfy it, but of course acting on hate only makes it grow.
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@hagen I'm staring particularly hard in East German. Die Mauer muss weg etc.
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@bydbach I guess we are underestimating the number of people who don't use or (consciously) experience those freedoms. Or experience the wall gone, but not the freedom because they can't or don't want to travel, but on the other hand don't like all those ”other” people now coming in. Real or perceived.
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@blackjack @bydbach This. Anecdotal example: A guy in 50s from small town of Slovakia. As a kid he learnt Russian, no western language. When in prime years, he traveled to Croatia because that’s where he could somehow get around. After joining EU, he went to Paris or Berlin once by travel agency, got overwhelmed. His kids somehow benefit from freedoms, but for him it’s scary to travel and get outside of a comfort zone. He wants all to stay the same.
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@tulko @blackjack it's like indoor pets who can't handle the outdoors because they only see it as the thing that might kill them because they've never learnt how to navigate it. Freedom becomes the prison in that case.
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@hagen ignorance of the other
Yours, theirs.
Desperate people are eager for promise
Some desperate have empty cupboards, some, an emptiness of content (mindful or object), others, an imagined emptiness via systemic dream carrots
Remove desperation and watch ignorance become tolerance become openness become acceptance of diversity become community
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@Sable_Shade @hagen how desperate would you say all the comfortably well off fash voters in Germany are?
https://www.dw.com/en/who-votes-for-germanys-far-right-party-afd-not-who-youd-think/a-47793722
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@Veza85UE @hagen
I'd say they're very comfortable indeed!
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@Veza85UE @hagen
Is it only the comfortable voting?
Is the number of uncomfortable, voting for this, growing?
And when let down again, by THE GOOD GUYS, will there more? And, oh, it's too sad to contemplate but... inevitable ¿
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@Sable_Shade @hagen Have you read the article? The study answers: statistically insignificant, rich and poor hate Others alike. As someone who grew up v. poor, I find this resistence in the face of all evidence to the notion that around 30% of ALL citizens (w regional variations) are simply sociopathic, mean, petty and addicted to algorithm-driven vibes and thus the cause must be their misery sort of paternalistic, tbh. Both rich and poor can be sociopathic and cruel. Gender on the other hand...
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@Veza85UE @hagen
You asked. I answered.
Your link was not visited.
I am unsure as to the point in your summary, sorry.
You find this resistence in the face of evidence to the notion?
I am confused by this, not sure what you are saying.
' thus the cause must be their misery sort of paternalistic '
Not sure of this^^
' Both rich and poor can be sociopathic and cruel '
Agree^^ but relevance?
' Gender on the other hand... '
???^^
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@hagen Cod be a tribalism mentality wanting power and control?
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@hagen People felt oppressed by a couple of years of mask wearing, keeping distance, home office rules, travel restrictions and now they think fascists will bring it in order.
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@hagen people's bigotry will ALWAYS take priority over their own well being.
It's the hardest lesson Brexit taught us Brits, that some people would rather go hungry than share a country with those different from them.
Dont waste time thinking about those people though, they're lost.
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@hagen brown people bad ... also maybe somwe Eastern Europeans?
Essentially hate makes people really stupid and forgetful
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@hagen far right political ideologies are self-destructive. They treat themselves like an infection and also like an immune response to an infection. The zero sum is the point--a few people will profit, and "everybody" (righties) wants to rule the world, generating the "popular" support for this degenerative ideology.
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@hagen
Disinformation is powerful especially when combined with hate & othering. For example, the US was not experiencing high prices relatively speaking but repeating it as a campaign mantra and Twitter and other social media boosting and inflating the claims may have led some to believe the lies. But mainly its white supremacy: racism, nativism, ableism, genderism(?), misogyny all rolled into one near package.
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@hagen Just like someone once wrote the same ones telling you they are not into it are the very ones who end up voting for tyrants. Look at Germany. Everyone is out on the streets proclaiming peace. Who goes to vote for the AfD Party? Someone does and they are not saying it out loud. 🤔
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@amalia22 @hagen People who denied the pandemic. people who lost during the pandemic. People with a very short memory span. people who were rascists, sexists, people from saxony. homophobes. transphobes. people who read Bild. people who thought “crime was non existing prior to 2015”…
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@hagen
The English lesson is that people forgot those were the benefits of a wider unity, assumed they were just part of the landscape, and got butthurt when they learned that Brexit meant Brexit and all the cool toys were no longer available.
Also, there's a gobshite minority in every population.
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@faduda @hagen there’s a long standing process where governments claim credit for the upsides of the EU and blame the EU for any downsides.
The media never call them on it either.
It’s like your mobile phone company emailing you to tell you of the great new roaming prices they’re giving you the day before EU regulations force them to.
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@Colman @hagen
I have to disagree. I regularly see pieces pointing out a minister is claiming credit for an EU initiative..
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@faduda @Colman @hagen That's not the argument you think it is. Compare it to what would happen if a Minister was caught getting blown by a male intern in the Dail bar (yes, male. If it was a female intern half the press would be doing the wink wink nudge nudge sketch whilst trying to get her on page three, which is a problem in its own right).
When those two get equal coverage, then you can argue that ministers get rapped on the knuckles for claiming credit for other people's work.
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@markdennehy @Colman @hagen
I'm old enough to remember Emmet Stagg, so I'm not sure that would play out the way you think.
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@faduda @Colman @hagen I'm old enough to know he was never caught in the act. Which was why my example was quite... explicit.
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@hagen
A well-informed electorate is a pre-requisite to democracy.
- #ThomasJefferson (probably)
We have an ill-informed electorate.
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@hagen
honestly tho in th US, we have a whole generation like that, including (white) women who could not vote until the 60s. That are actively still very much alive.
And the majority of them just voted for the party that is working to end absolutely everything positive instituted by government in the last 50 years or so.
I think we ware living in a time where the worst people ever exist. They had everything that benefitted them that others got for them and are voting to dismantle it all.
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@hagen Europe has been racist for a long while. Freedom of movement for Europeans, but not for Others is the guiding motto. So the EU freedoms are entirely compatible with fascism - a social economy for the in-group. Indeed, Fortress Europe shows us how it’s worked long before the rise of the right.
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@hagen imperialism is like a boomerang
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@hagen It's cycle - History may not repeat itself but it rhymes...
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@hagen People in Germany are doing too well in the sense of: they can't imagine, how it feels when you really have no more right of free speech. They still think, that democracy is self-evident, because most of them were born into a democratic system. They can't and don't imagine the unimaginable. Denial is the road to right-wing nationalism.
Wake up, before it's too late, folks!
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@hagen Never underestimate the power of wanting other people to do worse so you can feel better about yourself. That, and a desire to have some big strong daddy tell them he loves them even as he kicks them in the teeth.
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@hagen If I (American) had to guess? That's why. It's too successful, people have forgotten what it's like.
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@hagen It makes more sense in light of a clear understanding of how the international monetary order has functioned since the financial crisis of 2009 and how the pandemic response of 2020 cut the legs out from under the Washington consensus without any clear program to replace it.
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@hagen Pushing people's buttons with mass media is easy. Making a world that they are happy to live in is hard. The delusion of satisfaction brought by hate is often more compelling than the hedonism promised by materialism.
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@hagen
even more, exporting the idea of a small exchange of sovereignty for a large gain on security and prosperity to places that could well use it.
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@hagen My theory is that people got too used to it. They don't remember anymore how it was to wait at borders, have documents and luggage checked, and being not able to pay until money was exchanged and then having to permanently calculate based on the exchange rate...
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@hagen
Because they started seeing black and brown faces around town?
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@hagen it doesn’t make sense because you care. I care too.
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