In case it's not clear, when a sociopath explains away bad behavior by saying it was "just a joke", they don't mean they were making a joke to be funny. These so-called jokes are a test to see who is in-group and who isn't. If you think it's a good joke, you're part of their group. If you don't think it's a good joke, you're their enemy.
This is why their humor sucks. They're not making jokes to be funny, but to weed out the people who don't think they're funny.
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@joshsusser I hope your autistic readers realize that is not advice for autistic people specifically, that is great advice for everyone
especially younger folks need to explicitly hear it
though, the younger the higher odds they don't need to hear it cuz they know so that's nice
anyways hearing it explicitly empowers a person to call it out for what it is - which will make the "joker" feel super freaking awkward because as soon as at least 2 people are expressing disdain the recipient feels it, and the rest of the crowd - even folks who were laughing a second ago - are very likely to join in, which doesn't just neutralize the bigotry but vaccinates against it. Then everyone knows, make a bigoted joke and there's a risk of getting called out and losing face.
The script I'll try to use is:
"That's bigoted."
"It's just a joke, have a sense of humor."
"By making that joke you're trying to establish that it's fine to act bigoted as long as it's about them."
"It was a joke!"
"It was at best a test to see who you could be bigoted around. We're not here for that."
anyways great advice!
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@datum Yes, this is for everyone (like much of what I write here). I haven't had much success with direct feedback. I like the tactic of asking them to explain the joke and why it's funny. That can trip them up, because then they have to admit what they really mean.
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@joshsusser @datum It just feels so icky when you have to sidle up to them to do that. If you're even a hint of acerbic without playing one-up (their game) that approach cumbles.
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@janisf @joshsusser this is absolutely a fair time to one-up
monkeys learn from what other monkeys express disdain/appreciation for
the only time it's, IMO, ok to domineer a conversation and be quite socially rude is at a time like this
when abandoning fairness in the short view is being more fair at large
"no, you look like an idiot and I will take you down a peg for saying that"
taken down a peg, is harm
be a bigot? face an expectation of social disapproval/harm
"turn the other cheek" doesn't work with a bigot or a sadist, don't try it
do NOT sidle up, do NOT be on their side, literally do not be soft power, be hard power. If the hard power is not that you can evict them but that you can leave, then that's still demonstrating to the other monkeys that they can and will, sometimes, be judged for bigotry.
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@datum @joshsusser It's the right answer, but it's gross. I hate it so bad I just want to weep in their faces, and maybe piss in thier water bottle instead.
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@janisf @joshsusser Yes. I too despise it. But when I have to clean up baby shit I still do the shitty job, because I'm the one with the power to wipe the shit up this time, and if I don't it's gonna make a stink for everyone. 💩
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@datum @joshsusser I've only got so much Lorazepam, but I'm tryin'.
Yes, that abdolutely thecm work that needs doing.
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@janisf @joshsusser highly related https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/propaganda-2
by https://mastodon.social/@ZachWeinersmith
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@datum @joshsusser My church, in both attempts, paid and unpaid, was the in-group. I migrated to the arts, and got dismissed just the same, without articulation. That isolation and found conspiarcy-theory community isn't a downhill slide, it's just not painful slog though a pile of hypocrisy where the power games are played behind a scrim of "incusion" and "service."
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@joshsusser @datum I've tried that a couple of times but each time I've had a variant of "hehehe well I guess you're just one of those humourless people who ruins jokes for others by asking to have them explained, sorry bud no dice". Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
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@jaystephens @datum I think it works better if it's in front of an audience who aren't all in on the so-called joke. The point isn't to argue sense into them, but to shame them in the eyes of their peers. But take my advice with a little salt, as I don't have a great track record of getting this right, either.
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@joshsusser @jaystephens yes, exactly exactly - "the point is... to shame them in the eyes of their peers" - exactly
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@datum @joshsusser yeah I think it probably is the best move, but in exactly that situation ( a mix of folks who get the dog whistle and folks who don't) they were easily able to flip the script and make me (asking to have the joke explained) seem like the one who should be ashamed. What I'm saying is I need to practice, and there's some skill involved.
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@jaystephens @joshsusser @datum it can help to temporarily agree that "yes, I'm a humourless killjoy but I still think that joke would only be funny to racists. Why is it funny to you?"
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@RachamimOnWheels @joshsusser @datum yeah that's good.
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@joshsusser @datum
Well then,
I figure that by your definition,
I (left) am a sociopath.
At least the guy on the right tries to block posting this #HaHaOnlySerious "joke".
The explanation why this might be funny is left as an exercise to the Moral Busybodies who want to cancel any joke they don't understand.
[https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/19967-of-all-tyrannies-a-tyranny-sincerely-exercised-for-the-good]
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@christophmaier @joshsusser the original proposition was a person who "explains away bad behaviour by saying it was a joke" with "bad" standing in for "bigoted"
Do you really make bigoted comments intending to be bigoted, then when contronted, try to claim it's a joke?
You're at autistics.life so I would suggest that if you don't see why the above behaviour is troublesome, that you consult trusted people who can help, since folks on the internet are less likely to be productively helpful to you.
No sarcasm or derogation! :)
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@christophmaier @joshsusser oh my mistake! You're on fediscience.org so I should not be presuming ND.
If you were ND that would be no excuse for you, but would be a good reason to try to help you come to understand.
But assuming NT, I guess you're ... blocked!
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@datum a variation of your script that's not the tried and true "can you explain it to me?" tactic @joshsusser replied is to say "that's not a joke."
I've had it work because some people who don't get that some of the people they hang out with are terrible people are prompted to think about it. It tests them back, and people who didn't know often handle it very chill. Sometimes they'll ask, "why not?" But that's why having a few scripts helps. Depending on context, my answers have included "[type of abuse] isn't a joke," "we don't joke about that here," and variations.
Using "we" statements seem to work best as a third reply (read: "that's not a joke" is reply 1, your contextual script is reply 2, then a we statement is reply 3). It draws a hard "you're in or you're out" line. The worst someone's responded to me doing this (as a member of a twitch chat) was the shortest version of those conservative meltdowns (don't remember specifics but the "you'll miss me" and leaving forever kind). It's possible I just got lucky though.
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@tadghcr @joshsusser good call on "we" - makes it clear it's a violation of community standards and is unwelcome and disapproved of, not just clear to them but to others present
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That sounds kind of cerebral. I'd just say something like "That was not cool, man. You don't really think that (subject of the joke)?" If you're lucky, their answer will surprise you.
CC: @joshsusser@autistics.life
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@joshsusser this is such a good explanation of the recruitment strategy of the extreme right. Thank you!
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@joshsusser
Amanda Marcotte wrote this very good column on MAGA and "humor."
https://www.salon.com/2024/11/18/the-corruption-of-maga-comedy/
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@joshsusser
Terrifying yet recognizably accurate.
Thank you for saying this and for the handling advice.
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@joshsusser Nicely put. I was just thinking about what you’ve described so well while walking my dog, yesterday.
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What makes their humor suck is that they are frustrated and angry and seething, trying to joke as if they're not. Trying to hide their rage. Some of them are doing it to identify the secret evil commies among us (who don't laugh), and others are just terribly insecure about people discovering that they care way too much about hating something.
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@cy That's a good point. Have you figured out how to tell the difference?
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I mean, I don't advise trolling bigots into explosive rage, but it is a way to find out what they're really thinking. I usually just look at their past posts, and if it's all bigoted, I don't bother doing anything but warn people away from them. Not exactly an expert here. I just like to understand where they're coming from.
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@joshsusser Trump never laughs. Never.
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@12thRITS I have, on rare occasion, seen him do something that looks a lot like laughing. But it's a joyless kind of thing that only seems to revel in cruelty.
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@joshsusser
Always call out Schrödinger's douchebag. Always.
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@joshsusser Isn't the function of humour generally to establish in- and out-groups?
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@michaelgraaf That is accepted as one of humor's functions, but it's not its only function. And even if it's a typical use of humor, it can still be used in an abusive way. I'm not sure what point you're making, so not sure what to say.
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@joshsusser
Asshole A : "I did something cruel"
Asshole B : "lol"
That's how it's a "joke".
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@androcat yes, that's the other reason their humor isn't funny. it's always punching down, laughing at cruelty to people they think deserve it. it's not like it's difficult to spot, because they don't even try to hide it.
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@joshsusser
The right wing has no good comedians.
Punching down is not funny.
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@joshsusser Yes this is my exact experience. True.
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@joshsusser I recommend reading "On Bullshit", it's a short read and helps explain a lot of current communication patterns: https://www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf
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