Welcome one and all to the big #Linux BS thread! I get that it's necessary to switch to Linux, I'm imploring you to do so, and I don't want to discourage anyone but I need to document the ways in which Linux is just not ready for 600 Million more users and I don't think it's any technical limitation so much as a lack of design self-awareness.
Case study 1: A basic 1GHz Intel netbook with 4GB RAM. I installed #Manjaro. Keys, touchpad, wifi and screen brightness work, very impressive. I also really like that Manjaro is not dumbed down and I was able to get plenty of information about the hardware.
But hibernate doesn't work. Clicking the button does nothing -- already a design flaw in that it can't even tell me why it isn't working. A quick Internet search lets me know that systemctl hibernate is the console command for invoking hibernate and should give me an error message. The swapfile size is not big enough, just 512MB for a machine with 4GB of RAM.
Can I resize the swapfile, using dd and a number of other systemctl commands? Yes! Should I have to? No! If I enable hibernation and it can't hibernate because the swapfile is too small then it should TELL ME and provide a GUI to fix it, and that's without considering that it should have set the swapfile size big enough during installation anyway!
But still, that's not enough. Despite having a hibernate feature, the installation didn't modify initramfs & GRUB to handle hibernation! Can I do this manually? Yes! Do / Should I have / want to? Absolutely not!
Now downloading #Kubuntu in hopes that its own features actually work out-of-the-box :|
[#]KDE #LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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There is a special place in hell for error messages that give a list of instructions to follow, rather than a button to actually just do the thing.
Why is this message appearing? What does any of this mean to someone who doesn't know what these things are? Wayland? KWin? Fctix? (I know what these are, but there's 600 million soon-to-be-deprecated Windows users who don't)
[#]Linux #KDE #Kubutnu #LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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[#]Kubuntu hibernate doesn't work out of the box, so this is likely more to do with #KDE in general. That said, I did find a "solution", or rather an install option that makes hibernate work as advertised. #Manjaro does give an option for "swap with hibernate" during partitioning. Why was this not exposed in Kubutnu?
Again, my complaint is not that hibernate doesn't work because I didn't RTFM and do the leet hax in the terminal, but that under default options, the hibernate feature is present but does not work when initiated and worse still, does not communicate why nor provide a graphical means of resolving. Even Windows has a GUI for managing the swap file.
If you've had a machine running #Linux for a while and you decide to utilise hibernate at that crucial moment and it doesn't work unless you reinstall your OS or re-partition your drive and rebuild the intramfs / grub, likely requiring a reboot anyway -- why is the feature even presented as available!??
[#]LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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Problem #2: I use #CloudFlare WARP (https://1.1.1.1) to avoid traffic blocking on public wifi spots as I move around a lot with a laptop. On Windows, I just download and install it.
CloudFlare provide APT or YUM packages for #Linux. You're on #Arch (#Manjaro)? Well, I hope you like the terminal!
I am more resourceful than most, for I suspect the majority of current Windows 10 users would be stumped at that point. I happen to know that I can enable the AUR repository for some more software and there is a build script provided there: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/cloudflare-warp-bin Note how in the first comment that it won't work until you use the terminal to enable the service.
Regardless, something is amiss, as even when I enable the service and reboot, it's not the same UI as on Windows and doesn't even seem to be the same program. It wants me to sign in to some corporate web interface and not just enable secure DNS tunneling via a simple toggle. Here, I am at a loss.
I have installed Linux 5 times now, but now I need to change to another distro that uses APT or YUM, but also has working hibernate!
Now, the current state of obtaining third-party software in #Linux is much like the warring states of feudal Japan with no clear Nobunaga (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga) yet to unite the Linux software ecosystem. I don't really have a recommendation here for Manjaro, or #KDE; this is a fundamental problem with the lack of binary stability in Linux software but a lot more consideration should be given to end users who just want to run software and less attention to warring factions trying to be the one true standard (Flatpack etc)
[#]LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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Sometimes you can't make this stuff up
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Installed #Debian (#KDE), hibernate works by default. Uses Kernel 6.1 and older software like Firefox ESR. I would recommend Debian if you want a super-stable KDE-based desktop, but I need something more up-to-date (but not bleeding-edge!) because as a developer I invariably end up needing to install a more recent version of a program over the LTS versions.
Now installing #Fedora 41 (KDE) because I read that it uses Kernel 6.11. This is the 7th time I've installed #Linux but I'm starting to narrow things down.
— edit: Fedora 41 does not support hibernate, lol 🙃
[#]LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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Time for #OpenSuSE Tumbleweed! https://get.opensuse.org/tumbleweed/ The installer is quite involved but it does at least have an option to set the swap size to the RAM size! Does "for suspend" mean hibernate? I'm not sure, but we'll find out.
[#]linux #LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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Going to try #Debian testing; instructions say install stable and then switch to the testing branch...
WHY ISN'T THIS JUST A DROP-DOWN TO SELECT THE BRANCH YOU INSANE PEOPLE!?
[#]linux #LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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Following these instructions nuked the OS. No problem, installed #Debian Trixie from ISO instead (this makes the 12th time I've installed #Linux). I have KDE, hibernate, a recent enough kernel + software, and .deb compatibility -- hopefully I can stay here. #OpenSuSE Tumbleweed was excellent and I would have stuck with that but I couldn't install some 3rd party software because .deb is often the only choice.
[#]LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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BTB, I have uploaded my wallpaper to #KDE store: https://store.kde.org/p/2255425 Significantly more resolution choices are available at the original page: https://camendesign.com/art/tron-cubes-2019
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There are lots of different #Linux package managers. This, in of itself, is fine but how do I communicate to users how to install software/?
Let's imagine there was a shared set of basic commands that would invoke the relevant package manager on the system, e.g. software update, software install llvm. Now a shell script doesn't have to check which package manger is used.
Is this too much to ask of linux distros/? Am I simply too naive to think this sort of beneficial cooperation is obvious/? I don't mind that package managers are different and do different things, I'm only concerned with how an end-user does the thing they want to do with the minimum of fuss. To most people, the specifics of package managers isn't their hobby.
P.S. I'm inventing "/?" to mean a rhetorical question because I can see questioning the Linux mainstay invites contentiousness
[#]LinuxIsNotReadyYet
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@Kroc Make the switch effortless instead of doing things the old way.
https://universal-blue.org
Thank me later!
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@martenbjorklund Aurora failed to install on this hardware, but I will give it another go :P — edit: nope, doesn’t boot on this hardware, ce la vie
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@martenbjorklund Doesn’t look like it has hibernate by default just as with Fedora 41 🤷♂️ If I wrestle with the partitioner to create a swap partition, I’ve no guarantee that hibernate will work because of zram
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@Kroc @martenbjorklund If we're throwing immutable distros into the mix, maybe openSUSE Kalpa is worth a go? Based on Tumbleweed. I use it on that EPOS machine I have for demoing MAME - works a treat.
I've not tried it, but it might be possible to switch it to using the Slowroll repos instead for a slightly more stable set of packages.
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@thelastpsion @martenbjorklund I’m in the process of installing Tumbleweed now :)
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@Kroc Would Debian with distrobox on top work for you? Then you could have a stable Debian base and just spin up (for example) an Arch container with the dev tools you need.
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@thelastpsion That sounds like work that I neither want to do nor should be required to do to match basic Windows functionality! :D
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@Kroc Heh, can't blame you.
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@Kroc as for the bleeding edge, isn't Fedora by definition that? Or is it CentOS now?
As for the hibernation, it must be a config issue; all distros bring more or less the same subsystems. Check dmesg to see if you can find any relevant message. See also: https://www.grulic.org.ar/~mdione/glob/posts/configuring-power-and-hardware-related-events/
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@mdione I'm not familiar with #Linux to know :shrug: I'm just trying out whatever is available. As for hibernate, I'm not interested in fixes; I just want it to work when I install, as it has in Windows since Windows Me, 25 years ago. I got it to work on #Manjaro but, being Arch-based, it limited the ability for me to install 3rd party software provided only in Debian or Redhat-type packages.
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@Kroc Why the hashtag that Linux isn't ready yet?
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@peteorrall Begin here! https://oldbytes.space/@Kroc/113876968054498047
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@Kroc
Yes it is.
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@mboelen Nope -- unfortunate because Tumbleweed looks like a nice distro. I'll try Leap next but I don't hold out much hope, surely they use the same installer and config
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@Kroc @mboelen Leap is loosely based on SLES (Suse Linux Enterprise Server) and uses quite a different config; quite a few people will criticize it being rather old using Gnome 45 and Pulseaudio, it's rock solid though.
The installer however is the same. That said, 90% of people should never need to see that thing given most people prefer to buy computers with an OS already installed.
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@mboelen @Kroc As long as Gnome and KDE, the two big environments, think it's acceptable to be as crashy as they are it is not ready, no.
I literally had a Gnome dev and board member recently telling me that, at least for them, the Wellbeing Feature im Gnome 48 was more important than finally starting to work on an extension API to remedy the phenomenal instability Gnome Extensions introduce.
The same Extensions companies like Slimbook build their OS around.
One can only hope for Cosmic…
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@Kroc
Ready for what??
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@karlggestd 600 million Windows 10 users
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@Kroc
Try to install Windows 10 and say to me why is better than any main "general" Linux, distro, including paid distros, did you try i.e. RHEL or SLE Desktop? 😀
You must try Leap instead Tumbleweed. Rhel and Fedora. Ubuntu, even Debian.
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@karlggestd Trust me, I'm trying. I've installed Linux 9 times so far and hibernate has worked only once, on Manjaro, and the funny thing is that hibernate not working has literally nothing to do with drivers and hardware and entirely with the configuration chosen by the distro's installer, literal self-sabotage.
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@Kroc
0 RHEL, 0 SLE, 0 Fedora, 0 Leap...
And 0 Windows?
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@Kroc I got the «swap with hibernate» option during installation of manjaro kde just yesterday. weird you didn’t get it..?
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@dodgybadger Yes, it works in Manjaro, I was just trying to find a Debian or RHEL/CentOS-based distro due to 3rd party software being packaged as such
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@Kroc Oh, good. I prefer debian testing with either GNOME or KDE for desktop/laptop use. Went with manjaro this time as debian refused to boot on my desktop for some reason I really didn't want to figure out.
Really doesn't take long to miss the ease of .rpm or .deb packages
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@Kroc You can find the installer for Debian testing here: https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
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@frehi I was following instructions. I also installed the testing ISO and it appeared [to my limited knowledge] to put me on the Trixie branch, not on testing; and whilst that amounts to the same thing for now, I would still need to edit the sources to remain on the testing branch
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@Kroc @frehi Open /etc/apt/sources.list in a sudo'd text editor. You can see whether it's on Trixie or Testing in there and edit the sources used for your system there.
See official documentation: https://wiki.debian.org/SourcesList
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@RandamuMaki @frehi Thanks, but I’m also highlighting how unreasonable this is for the 600 million Windows 10 users that should switch to Linux. I know how to sudo edit files, but most don’t, and shouldn’t have to :(
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@Kroc @frehi Not unreasonable at all. #Linux doesn't have to cater to people who don't want to learn to use it.
This might sound harsh, but as with all new things; Just read the manual. #RTFM
There are other distros around who decide everything for you, like what #Windows users are used to.
Linux doesn't do as much handholding or deciding things for you as Redmond's OS.
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@Kroc @RandamuMaki @frehi Debian testing is definitely unsuitable as a stand in for windows. Clue is in the name.
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@Kroc @frehi Then use #KDE , use the Discover program, and change the sources there in the GUI. There's a dropdown there.
KDE is almost a drop-in replacement for the #Windows experience on #Linux .
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@RandamuMaki @frehi Ironically, that's actually what I'm using -- and the sources window won't open for some reason!! :P If you read up the thread, I've been trying to find a KDE distro that has working hibernate and whilst #Manjaro has been the best option so far, very little 3rd party software is packaged for it
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@Kroc @frehi You might want to drop a bugreport about the sources window not opening at the project's gitlab; https://invent.kde.org/plasma/discover
@kde@floss.social @kde@lemmy.ml might be of help with your problems with regards to hibernation not working with #KDE .
Flipping distros just because a package running on that distro doesn't behave as you think it should is not exactly going to help you in most cases. You could try source-building on #Gentoo or #Arch , but #YMMV .
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@Kroc @RandamuMaki @frehi
Because Debian does not want you to install testing or unstable unless you know what you are doing.
Which is correctr.
Those 600 million Windows 10 users would all shoot themselves in the feet with testing.
And so will you, if you think that testing is a good daily driver without having sufficient experience to make an informed decision.
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What @dashdsrdash said. People who want to switch away from Windows are not the target audience for Debian Testing.
If for some reason you want more up-to-date software than is offered in Debian Stable, the answer within the Debian ecosystem is to use the official backports repository. However, in doing so, you trade off explicit security support; which is quite often a bad trade-off.
I use and like Debian. But Testing and Unstable are what they say on the tin.
@Kroc @RandamuMaki @frehi
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@Kroc
Trixie is testing...
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@frehi As per the wiki, Trixie is currently testing, but that won't be true when Trixie is released
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@Kroc Obviously? If you use the testing installer now, you get Trixie = testing. if you want trixie when it's stable, you wait until it gets released and get the stable installer. Nor sure what else you would expect.
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@Kroc #Debian Testing isn't a release. Neither is Unstable. They're waystations in Debian's distribution creation process.
Debian doesn't promote or make Testing and Unstable available as alternative supported distribution releases, for experienced or for naive users, because they aren't. The approximate equivalent elsewhere in #Linux is Fedora's Rawhide. Including any of them in an evaluation of Linux as a Windows replacement is specious.
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@Kroc I always install from stable and upgrade. Not sure why, there are ISO's.
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@tripplehelix Not all hardware is the same, I can accept that. 🤷 I'm only concerned with design mishaps and shortcomings
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@Kroc Did you install stable, then sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade then edit /etc/apt/sources.list with the new repo's, deleting the old ones, then sudo apt update && sudo apt dist-upgrade?
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@tripplehelix Yes exactly that, but I accept that I may have made a mistake in editing the sources. This absolutely should have been a UI element to select branch. Never mind, I installed from an ISO instead; I haven’t firmly settled on a distro yet so there’s nothing on the machine to keep
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@Kroc It's only going to get more complicated until the new apt sources version is fully rolled out :D
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@Kroc
Have you tried flatpaks via flathub?
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@sihaha Yes, but for example, Cloudflare Warp is only available as Debian / RHEL packages. It's a mess and entirely on them to provide something better, but that's all I have to work with.
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@Kroc
According to the options provided by the distribution or the developer of the software.
Linux gives you multiple options, and yes sometimes that means an overwhelming amount to choose from (apt/rpm/dnf/AppImage/snap, flatpak/standalone binary/tarball). If you don't like options (as a user), then macOS or Windows might be a better fit. If you just want a car to move from A to B, then no one says you have to buy a Ferrari either. You buy the car that meets your needs.
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@Kroc
Your hashtag would indicate there is a point that Linux is ready for the masses. But unless users are open to the idea that they have to do some "digging" sometimes, it probably will never be a good match for them. The number of ways to install a package will only increase. A generic wrapper to install software is not a bad idea, but probably won't be happening if not all distributions adopt it.
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@Kroc I'll just leave this here in case it piques your interest https://justine.lol/ape.html
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