Ancestors

Written by myrmepropagandist on 2025-01-21 at 11:25

If you work with a database and are asked to alter the table structure to comply in advance for citizenship or gender categorizations it's really important to NOT do it.

"The governor is concerned about all this stuff they want us to update our record keeping so we store both gender AND biological sex."

"We need fields to store the country of origin of people's parents."

If you don't have the power to rebuff this yourself, ask for help. At minimum ask for help online anonymously.

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Written by myrmepropagandist on 2025-01-21 at 11:29

Depending on your job you probably have in the past made compromises. Maybe to keep your job. Maybe to survive. This is a bright line. If you are asked to be the one to update the table don't let it be your fingers typing those changes.

If you can't just say "No I won't do that." Stall, run away, feign incompetence. Just don't let it happen.

I suspect this might be where the rubber hits the road first for us around here.

Nothing has changed. You do not have to do it. It is not even ordained.

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Written by myrmepropagandist on 2025-01-21 at 11:33

Do not help them to build any more of this machine.

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Written by myrmepropagandist on 2025-01-21 at 11:40

I know someone who rebuffed such a request. Boss was apologetic "it's what the higher ups want, oh I think it's a lot of nonsense, but I don't want us to be out of step ... blah blah"

It was proposed to them in sheepish way. They said it would be a lot of work, not add anything of value, and most important they would not do it. It didn't come up again.

Fascism can be the work of zealots, but there are also many sheepish middle management helping hands who "don't even believe in this really"

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Toot

Written by Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 on 2025-01-21 at 18:12

@futurebird this!

Also, if you are being forced to do this, ask for this request/order on paper (or at least in writing).

I have been asked, at the eve of my IT career, to do a slightly unethical thing. I refused, but was told I have to do this anyway. I said: fine, but I would like this on paper, including the acknowledgement of my concerns.

It was never spoken of again, and never implemented. I kept my job, never had any grief from the higher ups about it either.

Paper trail is power.

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Descendants

Written by Raven667 on 2025-01-21 at 22:08

@rysiek @futurebird there is an old saying from project management, if something is implied, get them to say it, if something is said, get it in writing, basically bump things up a level of accountability to avoid miscommunication and ending up as a responsibility sponge

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Written by Adam Shostack :donor: :rebelverified: on 2025-01-21 at 23:27

@rysiek @futurebird To build on what Raven said, you can often present a focus on clarity rather than ethics, and get people to see the ethical dilemmas and go do something else. This is less satisfying than a good table flip, but comes with a paycheck and a chance to do it again.

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Written by CMDR Yojimbosan ⁂ on 2025-01-21 at 23:55

@adamshostack @rysiek @futurebird I wish I could get my company to see that the ethical problems in the training of the vast majority of LLMs means that we cannot use them in any way; but the only issue they're interested in is "will they steal our data?"

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Written by I Thought I Saw A 2 :donor: on 2025-01-21 at 23:53

@rysiek @futurebird just don't think the paper trail will stop them from letting you go for some other reason.

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Written by Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦 on 2025-01-22 at 00:30

@ithoughtisawa2 @futurebird sure. But they can do that regardless of the paper trail.

The paper trail provides you with a CYA policy. If they issue such an unethical directive and then try to blame it on you, you have something to prove you were pushing back against it.

"The more paper, the cleaner the arse", as they used to say in the Soviet Union.

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Written by Misuse Case on 2025-01-22 at 00:40

@rysiek @futurebird This is super important, I learned it from one of my managers early in my career. If someone has a verbal conversation with you at work where they tell you to do something problematic, either tell them to put it in writing or send them an email following up on/recapping the conversation to cover yourself.

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Written by myrmepropagandist on 2025-01-22 at 00:43

@MisuseCase @rysiek

Totally although I think a big reason why this is so important is that it is the kind of thing that can compromise your immortal soul. (Even if you don't think you have one.)

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Written by Coach Pāṇini ® on 2025-01-22 at 00:53

@futurebird @MisuseCase @rysiek

☝️💯🔥

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Written by Zen Heathen on 2025-01-22 at 00:57

@MisuseCase "As per our conversation..." is powerful. CYA.

@rysiek @futurebird

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Written by Cainmark Does Not Comply on 2025-01-22 at 04:43

@MisuseCase @rysiek @futurebird

Best advice I had from the best boss I ever had was: Save everything. Every email, every letter, every post-it note. Never volunteer for anything. Make sure your job is spelled out and nothing gets quietly added (got monumentally screwed on the last part when they refused to fill back necessary full time positions).

A post-it note signed by the person who was trying to get me into trouble for doing what they specifically asked me to do worked wonders.

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Written by Maggie Maybe on 2025-01-22 at 13:19

@MisuseCase YES. Absolutely and the way I used to do this without sounding accusatory or aggressive as I would just make a joke about ADHD and I might forget before I even get back to my desk so please send an email.

And if they don’t I just forget before I get back to my desk. And for real, sometimes it wasn’t even on purpose.

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Written by Dark Phoenix on 2025-01-22 at 03:20

@rysiek @futurebird aka CYA (cover your ass)

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Written by Maggie Maybe on 2025-01-22 at 13:27

@rysiek this is a good idea because when I was suspicious of something I was told to do I actually forwarded that email to my home email, because if I get fired tomorrow I don’t have access to my work email and if I get arrested in six months I’m not going to be able to prove someone else told me to do it (it wasn’t a crime, just sayin’) and IT called my supervisor to tell her I sent the email to my home.

I worked in the mortgage department of a credit union so I thought it would be much more suspicious and problematic if I was printing papers and then squirreling them away into my bag, but I was very very wrong. Lesson learned lol

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