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Written by srfaudio on 2025-01-29 at 04:05

Alright...this might be a hot take, but also, it's the truth and I don't make the rules:

A sizeable percentage of #linux "distro" hoppers are really just desktop environment hoppers.

And, to be clear: hop those DE's all day long if it tickles your fancy! It can be fun!

All I'm saying is your big switch from #Ubuntu to #Mint was really just #GNOME to #Cinnamon, and maybe on the next go around you don't actually have to do a full install of a new distro.

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Descendants

Written by Efexor Zolpidem :v_com: on 2025-01-29 at 04:14

@srfaudio it took me a while to realize I could pack like twelve Desktop Environments on the same install, and much more efficiently use them once and never again.

But, I guess it's a natural process of becoming a FOSS adult.

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Written by srfaudio on 2025-01-29 at 04:24

@capeta in fairness, navigating distros, DE's, package managers, etc. as a noob, genuinely is a bit of a #ux shit show for someone coming from Windows/MacOS. I do not fault people for the learning curve.

And that's where the #foss community could do a little better on education: less focus on distros (at least in the beginning), and more emphasis on how the DE is where most of the personal opinions should be.

The vast majority of #linux newbies should probably just pick Debian/Ubuntu, and then get a lot of good help on which DE fits their workflow.

And that's coming from a dedicated @fedora fan btw.

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Written by haui on 2025-01-29 at 04:59

@srfaudio @capeta @fedora the issue is twofold. What you‘re talking about is a form of documentation. Documenting requires effort and time. A lot of devs want to write software, not documentation.

second factor: money. There is some money in the larger distros & desktops, some apps. But thats it. There is no money in documentation.

the conclusion: Feel free to make a kickstarter for this (high level) or write the docs (low level). #pullrequestorshutup

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Written by srfaudio on 2025-01-29 at 15:22

@haui @capeta @fedora I mean, high level, sure.

But also, it's not really a docs issue, because this is something that's not distro-specific. Also, reading docs is, itself, something that experienced developers know to do, and most #linux noobs do not. People that are new typically attempt to engage in other ways, and we as a community have to bridge that gap. It takes a while to build up your "docs reading" muscle as a non-developer.

This is much more of a #ux and education issue.

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Written by Jochen Wolters on 2025-01-29 at 22:16

@srfaudio @haui @capeta @fedora The special skillset for writing useful and usable documentation aside, it's also an attitude problem. Every time I've taken a serious look at Linux as an alternative to closed-source OSs, I've noticed the same three issues:

  1. The attitude of “It's open source, so why don't you just fix it yourself!" as a common response to valid and valuable feedback. (1/3)

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Written by Jochen Wolters on 2025-01-29 at 22:16

  1. The impression that coders are the Kings of the FOSS Hill, whereas other disciplines aren't valued quite as highly.

  1. The demonstrable fact that the UX of FOSS applications tends to be sub-par.

Technical advantages of FOSS quickly become meaningless and unconvincing to non-technical users who want to give, say, Linux a chance. If there is no simple, well-designed, and well-supported migration path, then it's just not worth the hassle. Just as you explained, Stephen. (2/3)

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Written by Jochen Wolters on 2025-01-29 at 22:16

The required changes for fixing this have to come from within the FOSS community, however. (3/3)

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Written by haui on 2025-01-29 at 23:19

@jochenwolters i do agree on parts of this.

Being „too harsh“ or „suggesting too early that someone contribute“ is a thing imo.

But the fundamental problem lies much deeper. Our society is used to being the product and rarely minds that. Therefore they expect to get polished software, even if it means it is subpar (windows 11 for example).

FOSS software is hugely better on the technical level, like it or not, less bloated and less data hungry.

UX costs money. Cold hard fact.

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Written by Jochen Wolters on 2025-01-30 at 02:07

@haui I couldn't agree more on that awful "My privacy? What do you mean, this product is FREE!11!!1!" attitude. And in some cases, the product is worse in every aspect, including UX. And yet, many users will still respond that it's "good enough," and, of course, it's free, so there… 🤦‍♂️… (1/3)

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Written by Jochen Wolters on 2025-01-30 at 02:07

The part I don't understand about FOSS yet is this: Yes, creating a great #UX is hard work, and it costs money. But so does creating any aspect of a software application. And I see plenty of people contributing to FOSS projects who are employed by companies that consider this a solid investment in such projects. (2/3)

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Written by Jochen Wolters on 2025-01-30 at 02:07

Why is it, then, that this kind of investment is so unevenly distributed? Or is it not? 🤔 And if it isn't, then why do FOSS projects tend to be technologically sound, yet often sorely lacking in the areas of documentation, interaction design, etc.?

Do you have a theory about this? Or a correction of my — definitively skewed — perspective? (3/3)

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Written by srfaudio on 2025-01-30 at 14:21

@jochenwolters @haui so, I'm absolutely not the definitive authority on this...but I do have a working theory.

In a previous life, I used to be a professional creative: think #musicproduction #photography and #videoediting #gameaudio, etc.

At that time, I was a power user. I could do a few things on the CLI here and there. I had learned how to use git while doing game development...but I didn't know how to code and do software development for real.

So the problem was that I was just technical enough to get myself into trouble, and not technical enough to find my way out, or really implement something well.

Fast forward to now, and I've been a software engineer for several years.

My perspective on #foss #tooling #opensource etc. has totally shifted.

One of the big things that shifted is that I now know how to get myself in and out of trouble, and I have a level of confidence about what I can contribute. That confidence only came from doing software engineering for a while.

When I think back to my former self, that was a huge road block to coming over to #Linux.

And 100%, there's sometimes an ego/gatekeeping problem in pockets of the #foss community.

The culture has to change to see new, non-technical users as: "competent humans that are unfamiliar with technical concepts", rather than "noob dumbasses and how dare they not read the docs first!!"

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Written by haui on 2025-01-30 at 16:54

@jochenwolters As someone who makes and contributes to FOSS both as a hobby and professionally:

If you have a device or OS that doesnt run the app you want and its FOSS, you can change that if you're determined and have a little talent.

This will not make the normal user happy but with 10 minutes to 10 weeks of work you made it happen for yourself and some others.

This is also what happens in companies. Documentation and UX is made by people paid for documentation and UX.

Does this help?

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