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Toot

Written by Beldarak on 2025-01-09 at 20:08

How did people manage to do #webdev before #chatgpt ?

It looks like the whole thing is just made to break our sanity.

Want to install that thing? Oh here's a list of 10 things you have to install first. Be aware that if any of those things update and another doesn't, your project will be stuck in a limbo forever.

Ok, here's the 15 json and config files you have to change/create to use the new thing you installed...

Each command you have to type will threw 50+ warnings, it's perfectly normal

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Descendants

Written by Beldarak on 2025-01-09 at 20:10

I used Unity almost all my life and it always blew my mind to see how those game engines compare to webdev.

Game engine: Here's eveything you need to create any game... ANY game. Want to do a 3D car racer? Sure, you get everything from a particles generator to a lighting engine and we'll load your 3D models no matter the format, no problem.

Web dev: You want a menu and a form running inside a .exe? Ok, let's install the whole internet on your machine first.

[#]gamedev #webdev

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Written by Jared “Indie Social Web” White on 2025-01-09 at 20:20

@Beldarak Speaking as someone who's been doing this ~30 years:

You're in the middle of "modern" web dev.

It was an order of magnitude simpler before the hellscape that is JavaScript frameworks trying to eat the world.

Thankfully there are some new frameworks that are dramatically simplifying things again. Astro & 11ty are good ones in JS-land but you might be better off just learning another language that's server-focused and definitely more expressive. I'm a Ruby guy, first and foremost.

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Written by Jared “Indie Social Web” White on 2025-01-09 at 20:23

@Beldarak And my firm opinion is the best thing web frameworks could do is obsolete anyone needing ChatGPT (ugh) in the first place by ruthlessly eliminating boilerplate code, providing straightforward & automatable recipes for common tasks, and offering understandable and well-documented architectures which actively ward off spaghetti code and technical debt.

That's my 2c anyway =)

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Written by Beldarak on 2025-01-09 at 20:33

@jaredwhite

I feel we're in some kind of transition period. I can see the benefit of all those frameworks but someone need to come up with something similar to game engines but for web.

Install ONE software on your machine (+ eventual plugins) and your backend on your server and done.

We'll lose some customization but let's face it... we're just displaying and sending stupid forms 80% of the time, why are we needing 10 000 different tools for that job? :D

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Written by Jared “Indie Social Web” White on 2025-01-09 at 20:40

@Beldarak I've heard people describe most web apps as being just fancy spreadsheets…I think that's largely true! 🫣

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Written by Raptor :gamedev: on 2025-01-09 at 23:50

@Beldarak @jaredwhite about 99% of the shit I see people doing with gigabytes of pulled in javascript libraries can be trivially done in pure html5/css these days. Webdev isn't the hellscape it is because it has to be, it is because web developers in general are extremely lazy and set in their ways and would rather pour 10 layers of javascript libraries onto a site that eats so much memory it can lag out a gaming pc than just learn how to do a basic layout.

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Written by Beldarak on 2025-01-10 at 09:19

@raptor85 @jaredwhite

True. I'm probably also culprit of this to be honest :S

That said, I'm currently working on some small web-based dialog editor for my game and the issue I had that pushed me to this rabbit hole is that it seems you can't write files on disk easily with javascript (or even web-embeded Python).

That may be my fault for trying to do web without a server as it's not really the intended use.

I've finally setup a Vite + VueJS + Electron project, it seems to work fine for now

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Written by Beldarak on 2025-01-09 at 20:29

@jaredwhite

Yeah, I started (not so long ago, legacy stuff^^) on JQuery.

Not saying things were that great but you had at least a grasp of what you were doing. When something broke, it was pretty clear why.

At my work place, we now use Symfony, VueJS, Kubernetes... It works... it actually feels like magic when eveything is fine... But just like magic, I feel I have no grasp on the thing.

Updating anything is always source of stress and it just feels like playing with a Jenga tower.

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