Checked out #Linux kernel v3.7.10 to see if I can strip it down enough to run on the 386 with 4MB of RAM in the Toshiba T5200. My plan is to do something very similar to what I did in my blog post where I targeted a 486 (https://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/283), but this time use LOADLIN.EXE to load the kernel from DOS since I don't have a working floppy drive.
[#]RetroComputing #VintageComputing.
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No make tinyconfig on v3.7.10. That's going to make stripping it down a lot more work. #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Setup a Debian 7 Wheezy docker environment to build in. But already running into compile problems which seem to be caused by lack of 386 support:
In file included from include/linux/irq_work.h:4:0,
from arch/x86/kernel/irq_work.c:8:
include/linux/llist.h: In function 'llist_add':
include/linux/llist.h:160:11: error: 'boot_cpu_data' undeclared (first use in this function)
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Looks like v3.3.8 was the last version that could be built for 386. After that there's some change that prevents the kernel from compiling. #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Hey, an error message is progress, right? #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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I’m not sure that’s better. No error messages at all. #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Still can’t get my kernel to boot. Went and got the Slackware 1 kernel and used LOADLIN and that’s at least something! Maybe I should try to fix the floppy drive so I can do a traditional Linux install? #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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If I change the BIOS Memory config so that everything above 640k is Extended instead of some being Expanded then my custom kernel doesn't immediately reboot. Instead it just hangs with a cursor on the screen and doesn't print anything. Getting annoyed with the lack of a reset button on the T5200 too.
Would be nice if there was a way I could get qemu to act exactly like the T5200 so I don't have to keep testing on the real hardware.
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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For anyone who wants to play along, I've put the docker environment and my current Linux config here: https://github.com/FozzTexx/old-wheezer
I'll try to keep it updated as I progress.
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Thanks to @nina_kali_nina I've switched to using PCem instead of qemu since it does a better job replicating the experience I get on the T5200. I've been going through old and older distros trying to find one that has a kernel that boots on the emulated 386DX. So far it seems that no distro with a 2.x kernel will work. Newest so far is Slackware 2.3 with a 1.2.8 kernel. Bumping the RAM up to 32MB doesn't get 2.x kernels working either. Very strange.
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Newest kernel I can get to boot so far is 2.0.18 from Debian 1.1 from here: https://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/linux/dist/debian/1.1.11/buzz/disks-i386/SpecialKernels/
It will boot using the boot floppy, but if I extract the kernel from the floppy it will NOT boot with LOADLIN and instead the computer reboots.
Also not sure where to get the kernel config that was used for that v2.0.18 kernel. Or where to get the v2.0.18 linux kernel source either, git repo only goes back to v2.6.
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Found a v2.4.22 kernel built as a bzImage which boots on the emulated 386 here: https://smalllinux2.sourceforge.net/
That proves that it is possible to get a bzImage to boot, so far I've only had luck with older zImage kernels. Unfortunately there is no kernel config to be found anywhere for that distro.
#Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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It seems like my main problem is with the loaders. If I take a kernel which I've had success with booting and move it to a different loader, it fails to boot. If I try to take the 2.4.22 kernel from its floppy and load it with LOADLIN or SYSLINUX it won't boot. If I take my custom 2.4.22 kernel and stick it on the floppy that had 2.4.22 it won't boot.
Until I can find a reliable way of loading the kernel I'll never know if the kernel itself is bad.
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Found LINLD and I'm able to get my own custom v2.4.37 kernel to load on an emulated 386 with 4MB of RAM! I had to put the root filesystem on /dev/fd0 since there's not enough RAM for an initrd.
Not sure where the source for LINLD is, I found a copy of the .COM file here: https://distro.ibiblio.org/slitaz/boot/
#Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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If I bump up the emulated RAM to 8MB then I can also use LINLD to get gray386 to boot and give me a shell.
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Got gray386 to load in 4MB! I recompiled the kernel to move PHYS down to 0x100000, extracted the initramfs and put it on an ext2 formatted floppy. Loaded with LINLD and root=/dev/fd0. Can't try this on the Toshiba yet since the Toshiba doesn't have a working floppy drive. #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Got it to boot on the Toshiba! It’s seriously RAM starved and gray386 doesn’t even have swapon. It looks like I’m probably going to have to roll my own distro just for this computer. Many many tools missing and I need to add modules to the kernel. #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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What?!? Where's the i386 option, buildroot? #Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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Got a more complete busybox running on T5200! Started with buildroot commit before 386 support was completely removed, hunted down by @jason_duerstock. Fought getting it to compile because of cross-compile issues and slightly incomplete 386 support. Should give me a base to build on top of. Not sure yet if I want to go full "roll your own distro" w/package manager or manually compile things I want to add. Doubt anyone else wants to run Linux on a 386.
#Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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2 days of fighting with buildroot trying to get Tiny C onto the Toshiba by crafting my own package/tcc/tcc.mk. tcc runs and prints help but it didn't install all the rest of the stuff it needs in order to compile. 😖🤦♂️
cc: @nina_kali_nina @bigkrimpin @nanochess @huronbikes @anthk
[#]Linux #RetroComputing #VintageComputing
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@fozztexx gj. I think part of the problem is how the bios transitions to the boot device or memory in 386. It's not like 486 which is part of their routine to check EMS/XMS. 2.4 still use initrd, 2.6 was the introduction for initramfs. Each is loaded differently into memory and its sector size.
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@7adi gray386 has the phys start set too high which is why it won't load on the 4M system. If I recompile it to start lower then I can get it to load, it just doesn't have enough RAM to decompress the initramfs.
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@fozztexx you could boot to a separate partition, though storage will get cramped unless you are running xtide bios or something similar.
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@huronbikes It's XT-IDE. But I can't get this kernel to detect a hard drive at all..
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@fozztexx huh. Is it detecting ATA controllers at all? 3.x would have still needed to support PCI ATA for optical devices at least.
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@huronbikes It's detecting ATA controllers, but doesn’t seem to probe them for hard drives.
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@fozztexx weird, looks like it's trying to grab other ports/IRQs as disk controllers beyond primary/secondary. The legacy ATA driver may need some configuration (https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/ata/pata_legacy.c). I would imagine that in order for it to work on the real hardware (does PCem allow for setting up option ROMs?), the driver should be set to use BIOS calls so that XTIDE can do its thing.
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@huronbikes I bounced back and forth with the ATA/ATAPI/MFM/RLL and Serial ATA and Parallel ATA drivers (SCSI) drivers and neither would detect the hard drive.
Linux should be able to talk to the drive directly via LBA and not go through the BIOS.
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@fozztexx what controller is the pata_legacy driver reporting? it should be a bit further back in the terminal from your most recent screenshot.
I still think forcing BIOS access might be the starting point just to get the dang thing working from disk.
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@huronbikes It's not reporting anything else. That's everything ATA related in the messages.
Is there some command line flag to force it to use the BIOS?
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@fozztexx trying to figure that out now by looking through the source.
based on the comment at line 1197 (https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/09a0fa92e5b45e99cf435b2fbf5ebcf889cf8780/drivers/ata/pata_legacy.c#L1197) it kind of sounds like legacy controllers are not probed by default?
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@fozztexx My previous suggestion might be a non-starter. It looks like the driver adds probe entries with a controller type of "unknown" during initialization and from what we see in your screen shot, it's covering primary/secondary plus all potential common legacy IDE port/IRQ combos.
I suppose there's always the possibility of altering the driver source directly but I would think there's a less-invasive way to get it to pick up IDE drives.
Out of curiosity, is it same for 2.4?
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@fozztexx also another dumb question: an emulated disk is present at one of those port/irq combos, right?
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@huronbikes I don't know where else the controller would be. I'm trying to go back through all my posts to see what detected the hard drive and so far it seems like it was only Slackware 1. And that kernel was confused by the drive being impossibly large.
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@huronbikes Does seem like PCem might be the problem. Went all the way back to Slack 1.0 and no HD detected. I guess it was detecting when I was using qemu.
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@huronbikes copied the kernel to the Toshiba and it sees the drive! It sure what is going on with PCem.
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@huronbikes Got it on PCem. The trick was using “XTIDE (AT)” not "XTIDE”.
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@fozztexx nice! getting closer to a running system, excited to see some Python 3 on a 386!
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@huronbikes at this point it looks like I'm going to have put together my own distro. There's a lot of stuff missing from the gray386 root and so far I can’t manage to steal things from others.
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@fozztexx does gray386 have a working C compiler and linker?
I'm guessing this all is going to wind up similar to "Gentoo but for cantankerous, old computers".
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@fozztexx now that's patience!
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@fozztexx oh cool! Are you able to extend the RAM on the machine, I seem to remember mine having 8 or 12MB. I really should dig it out of storage…
Edit, just checked and nope 4MB is the max, I misremembered.
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@carbontwelve It uses proprietary 40pin Toshiba SIMMs. No way I'll ever find any.
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@fozztexx That is insane. You are insane. Please continue.
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@fozztexx https://gitlab.com/buildroot.org/buildroot/-/commit/6cb4814c87cb1282b4a1d35e73743e8dd1b12ec5
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@jason_duerstock wonder if I can reverse it
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@fozztexx Worth a shot, or find the last version of buildroot that supported it.
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@jason_duerstock reverting sort of worked. But the packages that I want to build don't seem to want to support 386. I might be able to tell buildroot to use older versions of those.
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@fozztexx openwrt is another option than buildroot but it's only network. Old routers are still used so that's best bet. I doubt you can run X11 though, maybe older xfree86.
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@7adi I have zero interest in pointy-clicky on the 386, so I don't think not being to run X11 matters.
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@fozztexx @jason_duerstock it isn't complete until it runs Rogue and a C compiler 😛
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@nanochess @jason_duerstock I'm not sure how useful running the C compiler on it would be. Thing is so RAM starved it will probably swap itself to death just to compile Hello World. Although I guess now I need to find out…
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@fozztexx @nanochess @jason_duerstock I remember compiling kernels on my 486SX 25. :)
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@fozztexx @nanochess For what it's worth, back in the day I could compile a kernel in 5MB of RAM on a 386sx/16. It took about eight hours or so, but it did work.
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@jason_duerstock @nanochess I don't remember how much RAM was on the 386 that I originally used for Linux. I do remember the 8 hour kernel compile time. It was a hand-me-down 386 in 1993 from some other department on campus, so I doubt it had much.
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@fozztexx could you please try compiling tcc for it? It should be super lightweight in footprint
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@nina_kali_nina That's easier said than done. Buildroot doesn't really share the toolchain it made for compiling everything for the 386.
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@fozztexx I used to have a buildroot recipe for tcc a long time ago, but I've lost it :< It's okay, no worries
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@nina_kali_nina Well I've got to figure something out because I need a way to compile other things for the 386. I thought I was going to be able to shove the rootfs in a docker container but was surprised to discover that buildroot doesn't have a gcc target package.
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@fozztexx adding new targets to buildroot is relatively straightforward. Please let me know if I can help with figuring this out!
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@nina_kali_nina Found this: https://luplab.cs.ucdavis.edu/2022/01/06/buildroot-and-compiler-on-target.html
Going to see if I can get it to work.
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@fozztexx I suppose that'd work if you will run it in an emulator!
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@nina_kali_nina I can't get that gcc target package to work. gcc needs too many things that 386 doesn’t support. Don’t want to keep going back to older and older buildroots trying to get gcc.
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@fozztexx @nanochess @jason_duerstock there was definitely a time in my life where I spent a lot of quality time doing kernel builds on a 386. Not sure if the kernel building was primarily with 4 or 8 mb of RAM, but I definitely started out with 4 and sat at 4 for a long time waiting for prices to improve
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@fozztexx @jason_duerstock oh I am interested! :)
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@eloy @fozztexx @jason_duerstock +1, I have a 386SX with 3.9MB of RAM - it isn't great for Win95 but maybe busybox will run fine there (probably not). Still worth trying!
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Gotta be able to say hi on some IRC channel at the very least - a 386 should be plenty for that :)
CC: @eloy@hsnl.social @fozztexx@fozztexx.com @jason_duerstock@oldbytes.space
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@fozztexx @jason_duerstock - what else will they run on a 386 w/ plasma screen?
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@dillera @jason_duerstock Pretend it's a GRiD and run an Aliens robot sentry simulator?
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@fozztexx @jason_duerstock - sure, that is fun for .0001 ms and then you still want to do something with it.
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@dillera @jason_duerstock I think everyone else just wants to run DOS. And a few weirdos want to run Windows.
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@fozztexx nice! love that plasma display! <3
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@fozztexx If my T5200 had more than 2mb RAM, I might attempt it. Might.
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@fozztexx good job! TCC comes with its own super tiny libc/crt, you should be able to cross-compile it with tcc itself, as long as the architecture is right
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