A lot of progressives and radicals in the US are making the mistake now of downplaying the utility of owning a firearm, many of which are saying it's better to learn first aid.
"I've never used a gun to take or protect a life, but I have used first aid."
Learn first aid, by all means please. Don't get a firearm (or knife or pepper spray or baton) if you can't learn to use it or doing so would be too risky to you. But looking at the past 20+ years of society and thinking those rules will apply under a rabid fascist regime if pure folly.
First aid can only be rendered if someone is there to drive the attackers away. If fascists jump you or start shooting at you, knowing how to bandage a grievous wound means very little if said fascists are still actively attacking.
"Not everyone needs to learn self-defense. That's what community self-defense means."
Not everyone can, but everyone who is able should learn the means of defending themselves and others. You are part of the community, and you too need to defend it. Deferring it to some nebulous third party (even if it's "antifa") is how you get warlords or are left with no one to protect you.
You (yes you personally) have some responsibility to learn to take care of yourself, be it disaster prep or self-defense, because if you aren't prepared, you become a burden on those who are. You become a drain on critical and limited resources. Yes, mutual aid exists, but we can stretch that much further and take better care of those who can't fully care for themselves if everyone who is able first takes care of themselves.
Don't get caught in a dangerous situation. Don't do so unarmed. Don't get injured. You have to learn all these skills. If you don't, it's okay. People will still be there for you. But please try.
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Perhaps it's who I'm following (and what does that say), but there are far far far more people talking about why you don't need a gun or other form of self-defense than there are who are advocating for it.
Times are changing. We need to adapt with them.
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"I don't think I could enact violence."
Just say that. Don't moralize about weapon ownership or downplay very real threats.
"I'm not mentally well enough to have one."
A some point the threat of violence from fascists will exceed the threat of self-harm. Only you know when that will be, but it may be sooner than you expect.
"Guns are scary."
The future is scary. It doesn't mean we won't have to face it.
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@hakan_geijer
"Just say that. Don't moralize about weapon ownership or downplay very real threats." Yes, this is what I haven't liked about the you-don't-need-a-gun posts. Some of them could use a good home on r/confidentlyincorrect.
That being said... we Americans send our children to schools that have metal detectors, that run active shooter drills. A run for groceries can turn violent. Just going to work can end in bloodshed. My first encounter with gun violence happened at 19. For many of us, it's even earlier than that.
So it may be there's an element of collective trauma from our stupid, violent gun culture that is having an effect here? I think condensing that to "guns are scary" trivializes that a bit.
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@regenerate I'm not trying to trivialize that, but I did condense all the various aversions to "scary" because it doesn't matter where the aversion comes from. If aversion prevents one from learning a skill or tool that could save them, the origin is little use to them if they end up dead.
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@hakan_geijer When gun discourse comes up I'm reminded of the attack on Hypercacher in '15, where one of the employees actually got hold of a gun, but couldn't use it and got murdered (I think the first reports said the safety was on).
I'm not sure he'd lived if he'd had gun training, but I'm sure he'd had a better chance.
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Opening a whole different can of worms here, but wasn't the hypercacher attack the one where the terrorists got their guns via a DGSI informant to begin with?
Edit: corrected DGSE to DGSI and found a source, they got their guns from a neonazi who was an informant: https://www.francesoir.fr/societe-faits-divers/hyper-cacher-claude-hermant-figure-de-lextreme-droite-et-fournisseur-des-armes
@Mabande @hakan_geijer
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@Mabande the wiki page said it jammed, but I'm not sure if that means "an actual jam" or of that's a layperson term for "couldn't fire" meaning safety.
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@hakan_geijer
Let's think of it not as "guns are scary" but "the unknown is scary".
Over the years, I learned about guns and I now have advanced instructor certifications.
I've also learned enough first aid and CPR to earn the same state certification that peace officers receive (for "load and go" via CCPOST). I refresh this training as often as practical.
Politically I lean solidly left, and I'm glad to have the training.
I think most people would find the world much less scary by learning how to handle and use guns safely, and by being able to keep someone alive long enough for an ambulance to arrive.
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@johnlogic I've also taught first aid courses, and yes the unknown makes people apprehensive, but no one is likely to get killed in my workshops or by taking a first aid kit home. I think guns definitely get a higher ranking on the scary scale
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@hakan_geijer > Perhaps it's who I'm following (and what does that say)
Probably. Pretty much everyone I follow is either talking about other things or actively encouraging ownership of such tools.
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@lispi314 many have been USians posting it, but the reposts have coke from euros who even among radicals are often naively anti gun
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@hakan_geijer
Yesterday, same thing went thru my head.
Now that discount store Hitler won, most weapons (legal & physical) are in state goons hands, with fascists owning a good % of them, how would shit & fashlibs intend on protecting themselves.
The shitlib cult built around antigun will force many more people unsafe unless they change their views about learning how to use guns.
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@hakan_geijer
I think this is made clear by the fact that the people you're talking about hardly ever advocate for IFAK or more involved first aid care and equipment either
because they're starting from a place of negative emotions around violence happening they avoid the reality of how these things play out
you won't hear them mention IFAKs almost ever because that thought process skips past the emotional appeals to inaction
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@johnbrowntypebeats I did see at least one advocate for IFAK / stop the bleed, in their defense. But yes this is generally true
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@hakan_geijer
If I were in the US, my instinct as a community organizer would probably be to start organizing community patrols (armed).
Start building that actual militia those gun rights were meant to protect.
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@hakan_geijer I'm seriously considering learning marksmanship and getting some guns: never know when you might need it, particularly now that the fascist scum are feeling emboldened and their numbers are growing.
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@hakan_geijer with friends like these (you) who needs cointelpro
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@hakan_geijer wanna know how many IFAKs ive seen JBGCs carry? 0.
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@jack I literally wrote a book about street medicine. I have many years of experience doing street medicine in hostile (but noncombat, nonlethal) environments. I am not coming at this from a place of naïveté.
Where am in wrong? Or are you calling me a spook because I'm not a complete pacifist?
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@hakan_geijer I know of evangelical churches in my area that are also training as right-wing militias. We are not in the Civil Rights Movement 1960s, and passive resistance as a tactic is just going to get a lot of people killed.
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@Meowthias
Passive resistance was not really used back in the 1960s either.
https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/this-nonviolent-stuffll-get-you-killed/
@hakan_geijer
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@hakan_geijer Indeed. To one: yes todays soldiers are not reluctant draftees, they are eager volunteers. Thats the threat. Not a reason to not fight.
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@hakan_geijer I argue staying armed and ever alert to the return of the menace will be key to staying free.
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@hakan_geijer
It's like saying you don't need to learn how to use fire to cook properly because you have a fire extinguisher.
Idiocy.
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@hakan_geijer also note there are leftist, or at least, non-toxic, gun organizations that will help folks learn responsible use of fire arms, host range days where you're surrounded by allies. Because guns are hard-right coded, it can be hard to go to the range or training alone as someone who maybe doesn't conform. And, you should get training and range time if you have a gun. Examples: John Brown Gun Club, The Liberal Gun Club, Arm Your Friends, Black Cat Rifle Group, The Pink Pistols
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@hakan_geijer a gun is an investment. You need to put in ~100 hours at the range, which costs money and ammunition. You need to put in another 100 hours dry fire practice learning to draw and aim rapidly.
Sadly, "people who really need a gun in the future" and "people who can afford all that time and money" has very little overlap. And "people who can afford a gun" and "people who will look away rather than intervene" is a fucking circle.
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@amberage You don't need to hit a target to scare it off. You might not even need to fire. And yes I've shot a variety of guns, before you ask. I'm not claiming to be an expert, and I know that confidence and technique all rapidly improve with time, but "requiring" 200 hours for self defense is a ridiculous.
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@hakan_geijer a weapon the user is not familiar with is a danger to themself and everyone around them. Someone who can't draw reliably will have the gun wrestled from them.
"Only aim if you're prepared to shoot" is the inviolate rule of firearm safety.
And under stress, all that gets 10x harder. I've had the opportunity to fire a gun in a recreational, supervised setting a few years ago and I got the hang of it pretty quickly. Now last month, I nearly got robbed at night and had to leg it out of there and I barely managed to get my phone from the pocket with how badly my hands were shaking and my heart was racing.
In dangerous situations, thinking is hard. Muscle memory is what saves lives.
Sure, maybe make it 50/50 hours instead of 100/100 hours, but either way, it takes a substantial commitment of time and associated costs to become proficient enough with any weapon – knife, club, pepper spray, gun, martial arts – to reliably employ it under real self-defence conditions.
I'm all for targets of fascism arming themselves to defend their lives and communities, but someone who shoots themself in the foot and then drops the gun or jams it doesn't save anything.
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@hakan_geijer and crucially, while "just shoot to scare them off" might work against opportunistic wannabe-bashers, it certainly won't work against neonazi militias who roll up with military-grade gear and 100s of hours of range training live fire doosmday larping under their belts. If your threat model is "Hank McRedneck who wants to punch me in a Walmart parking lot", sure, just flashing the gun might work. But that's not the only threat.
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@amberage I'm sorry what is your point? If a death squad comes you're definitely going to die? Because 1) fascists are cowards and there's always the (miniscule) possibility to scare them off and 2) even if not, if you can injure one of them it's a deterrent for whoever they target next.
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@hakan_geijer my point is "firearm self-defence is costly, it's unfortunate that the ones who need it the most can afford it the least, absolutely go for it but be aware of the cost before you get into it".
That's my whole point. Nothing more. None of the words you put into my mouth. All I'm trying to say is "it's not as easy as buying a gun and bringing it with you". That's the whole goddamn point.
I'm not trying to talk anyone into or out of arming themselves. I'm not talking about how useful or not it is. I'm not saying when you should or shouldn't bring a gun.
The last post was the only tangent about "average nazi vs. thirsting-for-blood milita are different threat models that you need to think about different in terms of deterrence vs. defence". Up until that point, I was only talking about "know this: it's expensive and takes time".
I'm not trying to fight with you, I was trying to contribute to the discussion constructively.
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If you follow me, and you're stuck in the US, please follow this advice.
The most effective form of defence is the ability to perform absolute aggression. Learn this skill or be caught without it.
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