Ancestors

Toot

Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 12:11

Reading (on Threads) about why people like #bluesky over #mastodon, and most seems to boil down to usability / wrestling with servers.

Have to agree. And it's why I still think we need a good #fediverse client as an entry point.

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Descendants

Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 12:18

Maybe it's devs implementing the C2S side of #ActivityPub, or a multi-protocol client, or built-in browser support for the #fediverse. Maybe we need a single entry point to the fediverse, with a smooth interface, easy setup, and a server behind the scenes.

Either way, making "decentralization" central to the user experience here is keeping a ton of people off the network.

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Written by ex_06 on 2024-10-12 at 12:19

@matt adding a single central layer for did identity could be enough

allowing people to move freely and having an easy entrance point by that single did resolver

also some servers acting only as relays could be good for feeds, the ''bring your own feeds and mods'' on bsky is cool af

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Written by glyn on 2024-10-12 at 15:10

@ex_06 @matt Decentralised identity is surely part of the solution.

Newcomers also need a way of priming their social graphs, e.g. from feeds on particular topics (as in Bluesky), from the local timelines of particular servers, from hashtags, etc.

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Written by wordsmith‽ ⁂ on 2024-10-12 at 12:20

@matt I strongly think that tech folk like us can't simply make this sort of assumption. When the Eternal November happened, you and I were seeing tons of people join this place specifically. Lots had no idea what they were doing but they asked, learned, and persevered. Some have stayed to this day. We must have actual data, not guesswork or assumptions, to know what might be dissuading people.

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 12:26

@wordsmith For sure, and it's great so many people invested the time to learn how it all works and stick around long enough to get something out of it. But even as a tech dude, I prefer things that are easy to start on while being capable of much more, if I care to learn.

For reference, I'm thinking about some replies to this post: https://www.threads.net/@chrispirillo/post/DA9Y1QVTqim

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Written by wordsmith‽ ⁂ on 2024-10-12 at 12:27

@matt Oh absolutely - Stuff needs to be simpler and easier, especially the basics. I remember a lot of the advice I gave to people left me thinking "no wonder people have to ask this, it's far from obvious".

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Written by The Nexus of Privacy on 2024-10-12 at 17:39

Interesting thread, thanks for sharing. I don't think it's surprising that Blluesky would get more attention on Threads than Mastodon: Threads is a Twitter alternative, and Bluesky's a much better Twitter alternatie than Mastodon. Of course the fediverse is great at other things -- networked communities, the variety of apps available -- but Mastodon unfortunately focuses much more as what it's not particularly good at.

Agreed that onboarding and usability are huge challenges, and also agreed that Mastodon's embrace-and-extend of ActivityPub (with its own API instead of C2S as well as with it's quirky interpretations of AP constructs like Note/Article etc) is a barrier.

I don't think a single server as a starting point is the right answe, to me it's more likely to be something that guides people to the right servers (no matter what the software is). https://www.wrecka.ge/fediverse-shoes/ has some interesting (early) thoughts on that matter.

@matt @wordsmith

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Written by Nelson on 2024-10-12 at 12:37

@matt A single point of entry sounds like a single point of failure to me. Mastodon tried this with the official client, giving up on encouraging multiple servers, instead simply dumping everyone on mastodon.social, with the result that the server is "too big to fail" and even when its moderation is unacceptably bad I can't block it because I'd lose too much of the network.

I agree with your other points, but if we don't encourage diversity we'll end up with a WordPress Matt or Google Chrome.

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 13:08

@skyfaller I'm with you in theory, but from watching the last couple years, I personally don't think being so militant about our ideals helps the network today.

I think the fediverse is still small enough that we should focus on giving a good first impression (UX-wise) and getting people in the door. Then the rest (e.g. getting people onto smaller servers) can come later. But I also know that's an unpopular opinion 🙂

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 13:08

@skyfaller Of course, the beauty is also that not everyone has to agree. Dot social might be the biggest instance, but communities who want to can also focus on only federating with instances that meet their standards. That's up to each group to decide.

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Written by Nelson on 2024-10-12 at 13:13

@matt I think if a WordPress Matt gets installed it can be very difficult to dislodge them later.

I think rather than focusing on popularity we should focus on getting things right before scaling. If all we wanted was popularity, we could just go use Facebook, everything else is a rounding error in size. It's also dependent on Zuck not being malicious, which isn't a very good bet. How many times are we going to make this mistake?

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 13:25

@skyfaller Fair enough. And I know that's the common concern, but I personally think it's a bit overblown right now.

The fediverse user experience hasn't improved much in the 7 years I've used it — which affects people today. I'd rather fix this concrete problem than run around worrying about a far-off day that may or may not happen. The fediverse is resilient, and we can handle threats as they arise.

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Written by Nelson on 2024-10-12 at 13:37

@matt I 100% agree about improving the user experience. You shouldn't have to do silly stuff like pasting URLs into the search bar.

But the easiest way to fix that is to put everyone on the same server and get rid of federation, and then you've thrown out the Fediverse.

The question is how do you fix the user experience without throwing out fedi, and you've mentioned multiple good approaches in your first post that wouldn't do that. Just please don't create a single point of failure.

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Written by Nelson on 2024-10-12 at 20:45

@matt I'm also a little irritated that you're calling this concern theoretical. WordPress is part of the Fediverse, and it's imploding right now because of a single point of failure. It's not a far off day, it's today. Just for a part of fedi, not the whole. Because the Fediverse as a whole doesn't have a single point of failure... yet.

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-13 at 01:57

@skyfaller I'd say Mastodon is more a single point of failure for the fediverse, with how much revolves around it and their small team's decisions. WordPress isn't as central here. So yes we're already there today, but as you mention it's just in one corner.

It's much more nuanced. The concern is real, I just don't know see many solutions besides... excluding people until we're absolutely sure fedi is decentralized enough, can never get EEE'd, etc. which I don't see us achieving right now.

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Written by Paolo Amoroso on 2024-10-12 at 12:52

@matt Or maybe there's also a strong social and perception component.

For example, the lack of a critical mass of celebrities and influencers beyond which motivation to join is stronger than technical issues. Or the press emphasizing technical difficulties that become a self fulfilling prophecy. Or the perception that the fediverse is weird (e.g. only for Linux hackers, activists, and so on).

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Written by Andrew Melder on 2024-10-12 at 13:07

@amoroso @matt this is how I was feeling about it.

I'm honestly not sure Mastodon can overcome a perception issue with a technical solution.

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 13:14

@andrewmelder @amoroso Absolutely there's the perception issue, which is hard to shake at this point. But I think better design can really help change that. Or even just a giant single point of entry like Threads (when they finally fully integrate).

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Written by Andrew Melder on 2024-10-12 at 13:20

@matt @amoroso I do hope Threads could be the gateway if they get to full Fediverse integration.

However, it seems like they are kicking own goals at the moment and I worry Zuck is losing interest (only relevant for resources and attention).

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Written by Coach Pāṇini ® on 2024-10-13 at 05:16

@andrewmelder @matt @amoroso

https://inaniludibrio.com/2024/02/13/mastodon-is-for-old-school-neophiles/

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Written by Paolo Amoroso on 2024-10-13 at 06:49

@paninid That's indeed what I mean.

@andrewmelder @matt

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Written by b-loved dreamer on 2024-10-12 at 13:29

@matt or maybe we need none of that and keeping the barrier of entry a bit higher than the other platforms is a good thing

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-12 at 15:42

@mrzool I'm not interested in gatekeeping the fediverse like that. More selfishly, I just don't want it to continue being a pain in the ass to use 😅

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Written by b-loved dreamer on 2024-10-12 at 19:59

@matt I get it. I’m actually kinda torn between the two (my ‘maybe’ wasn’t sarcasm) — sometimes I think a bit more polish and UX improvements would be nice. But I’ve also seen so many great things go downhill after becoming mainstream that I’m okay with Mastodon staying a bit rough and nerdy.

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-13 at 02:20

@mrzool Ah sorry, took it as sarcasm. But yeah I think that can be useful for certain spaces, absolutely. I used to feel that way about fedi, and some of my own projects. But personally I think the fediverse is mature enough to be ready for the mainstream (and that this is the moment to do it)

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Written by Futurist 🔬 on 2024-10-12 at 13:54

@matt

Maybe you ask yourself in lack of a good start.

To start just Register on Mastodon.social.

To dive deeper I recommend finding a Buddy for first questions,

Have look at this: https://fediverse.party/

I don't know what is harder then creating accounts on Facebook, Instagram, Spotify, reddit and YouTube. You need to know your interest and what media you prefer or do you have question for a board?

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Written by Sebastian Lasse on 2024-10-13 at 07:23

@matt

Sorry, It'is maybe just you ignoring all our work.

All of our 3 clients use C2S and so will the Public Broadcasters project with millions and millions.

And so:

If you have an account at the Public Broadcasters server, just feel free to select the Client you currently need.

Or – do you mean a US hypercapitalist single entry point in an exclusive foundation?

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-13 at 14:03

@sl007 I'll check it out! Wasn't ignoring your work, I just meant that maybe more people should implement C2S.

Otherwise I was talking about making the onboarding process easier for people who don't want to learn the complexities of ActivityPub. Good UX, abstracting away some of the technical side. Things we've all talked about for a long time.

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Written by Fla on 2024-10-15 at 11:08

@matt email is completely decentralized and people perfectly understood that if they have a gmail account they don't need to log in yahoo.com to write an email to the person there. Nor that they can't find the email listed in a centralized directory.

I think it's actually the opposite, we tried to hide decentralization in the UI as much as possible (only nickname instead of full id for example), but that's a mistake.

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-15 at 12:52

@fla the problem is people have a different mental model for social media already (based on centralized platforms), whereas email has always been the same. So people expect fedi platforms that look like centralized platforms (like Mastodon) to behave like those platforms (e.g. Twitter).

Fediverse platforms need to meet people where they already are in terms of functionality, UX, and design, instead of forcing people to wrap their heads around "it's just like email."

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Written by Matt Baer on 2024-10-15 at 12:59

@fla more to my original point, Gmail doesn't make it all about "you can message someone on Yahoo". It's just Gmail, and it just works. The providers don't sell themselves on how great interoperability is, so the protocol blends into the background from a user perspective. That's what the fediverse needs.

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Written by Sobral on 2024-10-12 at 12:23

Puta que pariu!

From: @msoares.bsky.social

at://did:plc:xgwilwgow3m4qqpeqzurzmge/app.bsky.feed.post/3l6ct324yhm2e

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Written by Jake LaCaze on 2024-10-12 at 13:39

@matt Options ain’t worth a damn if they’re too hard to exercise.

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Written by Futurist 🔬 on 2024-10-12 at 13:48

@matt

A client for Android? Try fedilab https://fedilab.app/ and whalebird on desktop https://whalebird.social/

I don't know what your requirements on a good client are but these have multiaccount and muliprotocol.

Use this or similar to support the developers to improve the Apps release by release.

There is also an APP for bluesky, Mastodon, nostr, but I've not testet them in lack of using other networks out of fedi.

The hardest thing is to find a suitable server not to register 10 accs.

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Written by Khleedril on 2024-10-12 at 14:40

@matt I think Mastodon's, and the Fediverse's problem, is lack of measure of engagement. Favorites don't mean anything globally and are fairly hidden, and boosts are relatively rare here.

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