Ancestors

Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-26 at 12:41

OK, so the fediverse is obviously better than the siloverse (i.e. twitter, facebook, etc) in that it's decentralized, and by that I mean can't be bent to the will of a coked-up billionaire (no drug shaming, you just shouldn't be operating heavy machinery when you do it.)

But here's the thing: we have copied all silo apps: mastodon for twitter, pixelfed for insta, lemmy for reddit

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Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-26 at 12:46

The siloverse platforms have obviously bad stuff build in, like ads (including the really dangerous kind) and centralized data sale and other stuff, that we've managed to ameliorate.

But there is a part in which they catered for basic human desires: attention, recognition, etc. And in catering to these "consumer demands" ultimately created patterns (e.g. follower-feed) that we have inherited. (Lemmy/reddit suffers less from this, acknowledged)

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Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-26 at 12:50

On top of the Siloverse amplifying our "bad desires", they never really had any politics to speak of. None of them ever had the toolage of protest in mind, crowdfunding for the commons, therapy with caring-yet-unknown internet people. These things did still happen, with more or less hacking, anyway.

But what if we had these as first goals? What if we build in "random connections" between people, as a way to break through the self-reinforcing hierarchy of influencers, even here?

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Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-26 at 12:55

I don't want to even think about implementation right now, but I do think this is important, imaginary work to do.

Imagine if we could list the social centers that have been able to buy-out their buildings through fedi crowd-funding.

Imagine if there were studies to show that fedizens had significantly better mental health than silozens.

Imagine if you just checked in here, and didn't get lost.

Imagine if the fediverse could, quasi-collectively, express a political will on topical issues.

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Toot

Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-26 at 13:00

We can do so much more than copying bad-examples, then hacking the bad bits out!

The platforms we need, we can't copy, because they don't exist yet.

We seem to be disproportionately "active" in the world, and if we can work together better, more effectively, efficiently and with more joy, we can all better combat fascism and create common good.

This is my Sunday appeal, thank you for reading.

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Descendants

Written by ex_06 on 2025-01-26 at 15:09

@douginamug this appeal is half cooked u_u

where is the actionable and whom is it directed to?u_u

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Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-27 at 14:40

@ex_06 yeah, this thread is def not actionable. I also realize that people who have been doing the hard work of getting fedi to where it is now could read this as "bUt WhY diDn'T u do iT bEttEr?!", but I def didn't mean it like that.

I guess I just wanted to articulate my thought process to understand it myself, and open it to peer review.

I guess I'll keep a look out for small interventions to existing apps, open issues, nerd-snipe, etc. Basically what I do already.

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Written by ex_06 on 2025-01-27 at 15:34

@douginamug

oh don’t worry I’m not fan of the “why didn’t you do it” because I actually think that it is exactly the issue in the fedi right now. A bit like we are in a top “scratching their own itch” time. While what we need maybe is someone conceding to other people’s needs.

Not being code first, not being repository first, not having sysadmins in mind for the hosting and so on. Maybe there are also not enough contributors and maybe some main devs should focus on teaching other people to contribute even if in the short term takes more time and different skills (not rethorical “maybes”, I really am not sure).

The copying and fixing part imo is not that bad tho

A recent pet peeve of mine is checking if the admin tools have a web UI. Empower the users, the mods and the admins, do not concentrate power on the sysadmins…

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Written by Antonin @ FOSDEM on 2025-01-26 at 23:29

@douginamug yes, but design is hard. It is sooo convenient to copy existing designs, both for the implementers and users who don't need to familiarize themselves with anything new… Trying to get involved in #forgejo really made me realize that.

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Written by Rosano on 2025-01-27 at 05:43

@pintoch @douginamug important dynamic: copying leads to what doug described, yet also makes it 'accessible' because it's familiar. this could be a result of trying to build for some abstract / generic concept of 'critical mass'. whereas building for a small and specific community purpose makes those concerns less relevant, and when the niche tool works well for one group, others will take notice. root the construction in tangibly helping small groups (ideally ones you know or belong to).

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Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-27 at 14:46

@rosano @pintoch right, this is 2-in-1:

1. copying is easier for devs, way easier than getting all the design work done (note: where is the free design movement? Lack of designers in FOSS seems like a huge topic)

2. copying is easier for users, who have grown used to UI/affordances, etc

And for these reasons, copying as much as possible has a lot of advantages! But doesn't have to be 1:1 copy, indeed my argument is that that is a problem.

So... Who's good at wireframing 👀

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Written by Doug Webb on 2025-01-27 at 14:46

@rosano did you write up your forgejo experience @pintoch ?

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Written by Antonin @ FOSDEM on 2025-01-27 at 17:22

@douginamug @rosano not yet, it's ongoing :)

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Written by Rosano on 2025-01-27 at 16:03

@douginamug i think @opensourcedesign tries to bring more design into foss https://opensourcedesign.net/jobs/

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Written by Rosano on 2025-01-27 at 05:36

@douginamug

"following someone else's spec" leads to the phenomenon you described, so it's important to think together and consider needs. the appeal is not 'half-cooked', but rather an invitation to cook collectively.

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Written by Rosano on 2025-01-27 at 05:36

@douginamug who's 'active' here tends toward technical. need to question the obsession with coding and implementation, ask why design is often not a consideration or valued as much. grants also tend to favour lines written.

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Written by Rosano on 2025-01-27 at 05:37

@douginamug 'building things' as one or more individuals versus 'working well / vibing' as a group draws different attention

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