I read the communist manifesto wanting it to turn me into a communist, wanting to learn about what the communist utopia looks like. I was disappointed on both things. It seems like the real communism/utopia for communists is the constant struggle for revolution and socialism.
I don't think that reading a book will necessarily radicalise you into thinking that way. I don't know what else needs to be there but I think you generally need to be open and in agreement with what is being said to follow it. Like it has to speak to you but that presupposes that you already agree with those viewpoints even if you couldn't quite articulate them.
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@sim The same as "Mein Kampf" wouldn't turn you into a nazi.
You have to take into account the social and economic context of the time, and if you do so, most of both books are populism camouflaged as revolution.
Also, communism always struggles because nobody really wants it, despite some people defending it like it's life or death.
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@captainepoch @sim
Also, communism always struggles because nobody really wants it, despite some people defending it like it's life or death.
TFW you genuinely want it because you really just want a cozy, fulfilling life with honest work, good relationships, and a lack of hierarchies, rather than endlessly exploiting each other, seeking empty soulless luxury, and being caught up in a hamster wheel of incessant competition...
It may be true that too few people really want this though. I don't know.
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@taylan @sim See? "Honest work"? In real communism, you shouldn't need to work.
good relationships
You can have that without communism. If you don't, it's your problem. Deal with it.
and a lack of hierarchies
Communism has hierarchies. You can't have it without them, because we're not equal in a society, despite your best efforts.
exploiting each other
Don't join that wheel, then, and you won't be one exploiting another. Also, don't let people exploit you.
seeking empty soulless luxury
It depends what you understand for luxury. Based on this affirmation of yours, you have a shallow concept of luxury. So, again, your problem, deal with it.
--
You defend an utopia, where I defend reality. And reality is that the powers that be won't allow communism ever, even with the famous revolution Marx and Engels and Bakunin promised to the people (I admit this last one is anarchism rather than communism, but he serves for the purpose of the argument, you can ignore I mentioned him).
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@captainepoch @sim
In real communism, you shouldn't need to work.
Who's gonna produce food, build houses, teach kids, and take care of the elderly, etc.?
Communism has hierarchies. You can't have it without them, because we're not equal in a society, despite your best efforts.
It's not supposed to have hierarchies. From everyone according to their ability, to everyone according to their needs.
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@taylan @sim
Who's gonna produce food, build houses, teach kids, and take care of the elderly, etc.?
If you call that work instead of contributing to the good of society, then you don't defend communism, you defend an idea of communism masquerading another way of keep the capitalism alive.
It's not supposed to have hierarchies. From everyone according to their ability, to everyone according to their needs.
That's anarchism, not communism.
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@captainepoch @sim
Who's gonna produce food, build houses, teach kids, and take care of the elderly, etc.?
If you call that work instead of contributing to the good of society, then you don't defend communism, you defend an idea of communism masquerading another way of keep the capitalism alive.
Seems like semantics. I'd just call it (honest) work. Same thing.
It's not supposed to have hierarchies. From everyone according to their ability, to everyone according to their needs.
That's anarchism, not communism.
So Marx was an anarchist then? :blobcat-thinking:
The phrase originates from him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_needs
My understanding is that the end goal of communism is, indeed, a form of anarchy anyway.
In any case, that's how I think of communism / is what I mean when I talk about my desire for communism.
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@taylan @sim
Seems like semantics. I'd just call it (honest) work. Same thing.
Semantics is what allows words to have meaning based on context, so using them properly is the correct way of expressing thoughts. You calling it '(honest) work' is not precisely aligned with the communist way of thinking.
Also, and using the link you shared with me, I quote:
"[...] after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor [...]".
Do you still want to call it work?
So Marx was an anarchist then?
He wasn't. Also, that origins from socialism, and in that, you have hierarchies.
My understanding is that the end goal of communism is, indeed, a form of anarchy anyway.
In any case, that's how I think of communism / is what I mean when I talk about my desire for communism.
Communism is not your way of understanding or your desire. It has a set of rules and behaviors for every member of a society.
And, what you want, is anarchism.
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@captainepoch Yeah. It is strange how books get banned, how people believe that if you read a book then you will become the ideology it espouses. Imagine how confusing that would be though, that you become the last thing that you read. It just doesn't work this way.
Am I a conservative because I read some books on it or did it allow me to better articulate my own thoughts and give me better insight that what I agreed with had a name and definition? Where do these things really stem from?
This is the early argument that video games make you more violent. But it doesn't mean that you are more likely to go out and get into a fight, that you will join the military and fight to defend your country. If it did lead to military, people would encourage it way more.
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@sim
Imagine how confusing that would be though, that you become the last thing that you read. It just doesn't work this way.
Yet people seem to think that way...
Am I a conservative because I read some books on it or did it allow me to better articulate my own thoughts and give me better insight that what I agreed with had a name and definition? Where do these things really stem from?
Even though I agree that leaning towards the left or right in politics requires for a person to read, study, observe and form their thoughts, books only give you an insight of how society should work based on the "rules" of one or another side. And not always, because some books are just pure garbage or full of populist ideas.
Also, you can read all the books you want, if you don't understand what left and right mean in politics, you accomplish nothing.
This is the early argument that video games make you more violent. But it doesn't mean that you are more likely to go out and get into a fight, that you will join the military and fight to defend your country. If it did lead to military, people would encourage it way more.
Yeah, I always found this a stupid argument :D
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@sim all commies have problems with perceiving reality. They substitute what is with what they want to exist and argue that the latter is better, therefore their way is superior. The fact that communism is incompatible with the human condition doesn't stop them.
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