Anyone who owns a #mantis Q40 #braille display noticing that thumb and routing keys are no longer passed onto #NVDA after the v2.4 update? Lot of cool stuff, but something seems to have gone screwy #screenReader #blind #humanware
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@zersiax Hmm, no issues here running 2.4 beta, will try updating to the main release and let you know how it goes.
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@jessewienholts yeah it's rather odd, I played around with the update a bit and noticed it, and another person had the same thing happen. Noticing that no messages actually go to NVDA according to logs when keys are pressed
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@zersiax what build are you using? 2.4 beta build 4170 is the latest for me, and doesn't have this issoe.
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@jessewienholts 2.4 build 2401 from memory. Where'd you get the beta from?
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@jessewienholts 4201 sorry
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@jessewienholts the plot thickens... it works fine with JAWS, not NVDA
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@zersiax I haven't tested this, but I'm curious if you know which TTS engine they used for the new audio support?
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@jscholes I see voices like Sharona and Will, so my guess would be Acapella
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@zersiax I haven't seen any other reports of this yet (I don't have a unit to test with myself) - when did the v2.4 update come out? First, try restarting the PC - sometimes that fixes quirky behaviour. Do let me know if it's still happening
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@NVAccess It came out, according to the timestamp Tuesday, 10 December 2024, 21:10:21 GMT. I have not updated but can do so and provide info as needed. Assume hwIo debug logging info would be useful to have?
Source: https://support.humanware.com/en-usa/support/brailliant_bi_x_series/software_and_drivers
@zersiax
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@twynn @zersiax Thank you, that would be useful (either to us, or to Humanware) - but maybe make sure you've got a copy of the older driver if you need to go back as well.
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@NVAccess Oh, uh... they don't let you go back, just like iOS, Android, and practically everything these days which is all sorts of nonsense, but I only have it as a HID-compliant display tangentially for work, and my primary display works without issue even though there's a missing dot. I'll do a before-and-after comparison when i have a chance. @zersiax
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@twynn @NVAccess ahh, forgot to include you. Basically just tried hwio log, none of the keys register at all
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@zersiax @twynn Thanks heaps! I've asked someone else to have a look later today and we'll see if he can shed any more light on it.
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@twynn @NVAccess So, over USB, the device still shows up as being a Humanware display and the keys work. On Bluetooth, it's Standard HID braille display and the keys do not work. related, perhaps?
I've emailed Humanware about this,as well
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@zersiax @twynn Thanks, this might be getting closer. Looking at our user guide, we just say: "The Brailliant BI and B series of displays from HumanWare, including the BI 14, BI 32, BI 20X, BI 40, BI 40X and B 80, are supported when connected via USB or bluetooth. If connecting via USB with the protocol set to HumanWare, you must first install the USB drivers provided by the manufacturer. USB drivers are not required if the protocol is set to OpenBraille" https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/userGuide.html#HumanWareBrailliant
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@NVAccess @twynn hmm, yeah, there's a "TerminalTools" file on the q40's support page which supposedly installs drivers for JAWS 2018 and up, but JAWS already works here without having this installed, and it's really Bluetooth only where NVDA currently has an issue :)
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@zersiax @NVAccess Hmm. The release notes has two possibly relevant entries under the "Other Fixes and Improvements" heading of their release notes:
Source: https://support.humanware.com/Site/Files/a/06cc20404d351cbaa2520fcd0d5adc3/06771bbd1a209cae47b4e4727719ecea/Brailliant%20BI%20X%2C%20Chameleon%2020%20and%20Mantis%20Q40%20Release%20notes%20V2.4%20EN.docx
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@twynn @zersiax If it is using HID by default, it may be that it's HID support doesn't include support for the thumb and routing keys? Can you switch to the humanware driver for it perhaps?
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@NVAccess @zersiax Hmm. using build 4201, the display shows up as "(Standard HID Braille Display" with Bluetooth, but thumb keys and cursor routing works fine for me with NVDa 2024.4 and Brailliant 2.4.0.build4201. See this pastebin where I have input mode on and pressed all four thumb keys and first and last routing keys:
https://pastebin.com/raw/Tsf8S2Pj
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@NVAccess @zersiax I cannot choose "HumanWare Brailliant BI/B series / BrailleNote Touch" as the display in NVDA while using the Bluetooth connection.
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@NVAccess @zersiax My apologies for the garbage data. I have the Brailliant BI 40X not the Mantis Q40, so obviously things would differ. Please disregard everything I said.
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@twynn @NVAccess same. Trying to use the humanware option explicitly currently fails. If the q40 can switch braille protocols,I wouldn't know how that could be done
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@zersiax @twynn @NVAccess I don’t think there’s a way to switch protocols on the Mantis. I just tested with the latest build, and I can use the display with the standard HID protocol without any issues via Bluetooth. Other drivers don’t work. I’ll keep an eye out for any other users having the same issues, but can’t replicate it yet on my side.
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@twynn @NVAccess yeah... so humanware support US is more interested in the fact my unit's serial number is European than in actually reading my email and seeing the serial number is likely irrelevant. Oh well ...it's supposedly been forwarded to the European division, I'll report back if I ever hear back from them
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@zersiax I'm about to submit the report myself, not for the routing and thumb keys (because I can't reproduce), but for the inconsistent keybindings between USB vs. Bluetooth. This has become a weekend activity, why? @NVAccess
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@zersiax Report submitted. We will see what they say in result. @NVAccess, do we already have an issue in NVDA about the keybinding issue? Granted the quick reference isn't accurate anyway, e.g., Space+1+3 is not Shift+Tab but rather Home, but I can definitely submit something about the Humanware connection inconsistencies between USB and Bluetooth wit the 2.4 update as needed.
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@zersiax @NVAccess Update. Found it:
Issue: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/17518
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@zersiax @NVAccess Second update, it appears Humanware does allow for rollbacks. I rolled back, made a new paring, and upgraded but could not replicate your input key issues:
2.3 release: https://humanware.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/BrailleReader/release/2_3_0_D74E36352D278E1C966388667218908/Braille_Reader_v2.3.0_build3777.swu
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@zersiax @NVAccess I got a response from HumanWare, and they just wrote that "[w]e have forwarded your feedback to our developers for investigation." I'm not sure if I'll get anything back from said developers, but will keep you posted.
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@twynn @NVAccess lol my feedback got forward to their European division, because my serial number is from Europe. That quite clearly is the deciding factor here :)
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@zersiax @NVAccess Via @simon, there's a fix out. I have not seen that posted on the Brailliant BI-X Users list hence me not knowing about it earlier.
Post: https://www.freelists.org/post/aphmantischameleonuser/Hotfix-for-Mantis
Firmware: https://humanware.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/BrailleReader/release/2_4_0_113ECB178D1FE84759759E15D438479B/Braille_Reader_v2.4.0_build4203.swu
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@twynn @zersiax @NVAccess @simon If this build does not fix the issues, please let me know so I can take this back in my contact with Humanware.
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@jessewienholts @twynn @zersiax @NVAccess I haven't installed the problematic update yet. Should I install that first, verify that the issue is happening and then verify the fix? Or should I just install this version and test it? Is it a problem on both ghluetooth and USB?
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@simon I just tested and the fix works. I'd just install the new build and make sure that "HumanWare Brailliant BI/B series / BrailleNote Touch" shows up when connecting via Bluetooth rather than "Standard HID Braille Display" in NVDA's Select Braille Display dialog. I was never able to reproduce the input keys not registering, so @zersiax could probably speak better into that issue. @jessewienholts @NVAccess
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@twynn @simon @jessewienholts @NVAccess Amusingly that issue got fixed for me when re-pairing bluetooth and resetting the display, so I'm not all that much use but I'll try the fix and see if it doesn't break stuff at the very least :)
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@NVAccess yeah it's quite new. I have another person with me here who saw the exact same thing happen, so I doubt restarting will do much but will try.
I'll see if I can get a HWIO log at least. The display used according to the Settings dialog is currently "Standard HID Display", I forget if it was more specific before. let me look at logs...
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@NVAccess Ok so I can be brief re: the log: alog set to input/output and with the HWIO category enabled shows absolutely nothing when these keys are pressed. I see laptop keyboard gestures, and I see the braille dots being rendered, but the keys on the braille display register nothing at all
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@NVAccess @zersiax For me it works to some extend. I use bluetooth most of the time and haven’t tested the USB connection yet. Before I installed the new update for the Mantis, most of the time NVDA would connect to the Mantis as a Humanware device, sometimes also as a HID device, but for me it worked better when the display was recognised as a Humanware Brailliant device. (1/2)
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Sometimes I would use the reconnect feature of the Mantis to connect again and have NVDA recognise it as a Humanware device. Now, having updated the Mantis, it will always connect as a HID device. Cursor routing does work for me. The inner thumb keys, panning left and right, work, too. The outer thumb keys should move one line up or down respectively. Instead, they just move the cursor left and right. (2/2)
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@NVAccess @zersiax I have now tried connecting via USB. When connected thrue USB, the Mantis is recognised as a Humanware Brailliant device and thumb keys and cursor routing work as expedted. I am using Windows 11 23 h2 and NVDA 2024.4.1.
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@SunDial79 @NVAccess so weird... yeah it works fine over USB for me too, but not over bluetooth, and another person here at the house has the exact same issue with a different unit and a different mantis. the plot thickens :)
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@SunDial79 @NVAccess ok, a third person just told me they run into this with a brailliant. Via Bluetooth, NVDA always considers it a standard HID display and the keys do not work, over USB the device is recognized as a Brailliant and buttons work. Trying to manually switch the display to Brailliant over bluetooth results in an error. Seems to be the behavior.
JAWS has the interesting oddity that it does let you use the keys, but only after reconnecting the display after JAWS has been restarted.
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@SunDial79 @NVAccess OK ...in an odd twist of events, it appears that entirely factory resetting the unit and forgetting/re-pairing to Windows solves the key issue at least for basic cases. Not sure about braille command gestures, I rarely use those, but scrolling and routing works after doing this
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@zersiax @NVAccess I have reset the Mantis to factory settings and nothing has changed. Via USB, NVDA recognises it as a Humanware Brailliant and the outer thumb keys work as expected. Via Bluetooth, NVDA recognises it as a HID device and the outer thumb keys are registered as arrow keys right and left.
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