Ancestors

Toot

Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-30 at 19:16

Italian 'quello', Portuguese 'aquele', and Spanish 'aquel', all demonstrative adjectives meaning "that", have an interesting origin.

The part '(a)qu-' comes from Popular Latin 'eccum', meaning "look".

This word came to be used as an intensifier of demonstratives: 'eccum ille' ('look, that') became 'quello', 'aquele', and 'aquel'.

Italian even preserves 'eccum' as a standalone word: 'Ecco la ragione!' ("That's the reason!").

Click my new graphic to learn all about Romance demonstratives.

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Descendants

Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-31 at 12:46

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An addition to the graphic above:

Another interesting Italian word is 'codesto': "that (near you)", now archaic outside Tuscany.

It comes from Old Italian 'cotevesto'.

This word descended from Latin 'eccum tibi istum', literally something like "here's this for you".

In isolation, these words became 'ecco', 'ti', and '(qu)esto'.

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Written by Damtux (Mastodon) on 2025-01-30 at 19:22

@yvanspijk Hello, I didn't know part of this, as italian (and having studied Latin in high school)! Thank you!

It's always fascinating to discover the origin of our languages!

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Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-30 at 19:23

@damtux Grazie per il messaggio simpatico! :)

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Written by Damtux (Mastodon) on 2025-01-30 at 19:26

@yvanspijk prego :)

e conosci anche l'italiano, ovviamente! :D

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Written by (((Den som ikke vet))) on 2025-01-31 at 10:00

@yvanspijk @damtux After a few seconds, I understood that!

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Written by Mark Dominus on 2025-01-30 at 20:37

@yvanspijk I thought that in Latin "iste" had a pejorative sense, analogous to "that" in "that boyfriend of yours",

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Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-30 at 20:39

@mjd It's indeed one of the possible uses, but not its main meaning.

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Written by Sibrosan on 2025-01-31 at 09:43

@yvanspijk Zou het Portugese bijwoord "eis" niet ook zijn afgeleid van "ecce"?

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Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-31 at 09:56

@sibrosan 'Ecce' zou in het Portugees *ece zijn geworden; 'eis' zou er niet uit hebben kunnen ontstaan. 'Eis' lijkt te wijzen op het Volkslatijnse *ixe, een variant van 'ipse' die ook aan de basis ligt van het Catalaanse 'eixe' op de afbeelding.

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Written by Giovanni Mascellani on 2025-01-31 at 11:35

@yvanspijk Thanks, as usual! Italian also has "codesto" as medial form, though it's not very used today, especially outside of Tuscany. I would guess that -esto still comes from "iste", but where does cod- stems out?

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Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-31 at 11:38

@giomasce 'Codesto' is related as well, indeed. It comes from Old Italian 'cotesto', from earlier 'cotevesto', from Latin 'eccum tibi istum', literally "here's that for you".

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Written by Marc van Oostendorp on 2025-01-31 at 15:11

@yvanspijk I am not sure I understand what you mean by 'an archaic word' that is 'archaic outside of Tuscany': that it isn't archaic in the Italian as spoken in Tuscany? But other Italo-Romance languages have also retained a difference between e.g. chistu (close to me)/chissu (close to you)/ciddu (distal). Or do you mean their etymology is different?

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Written by Marc van Oostendorp on 2025-01-31 at 15:12

@yvanspijk https://academic.oup.com/book/9369/chapter-abstract/156342635

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Written by Yoïn van Spijk on 2025-01-31 at 15:14

@fonolog Indeed, from what I've read, 'codesto' isn't archaic in Tuscany while elsewhere it is. And I'm indeed only referring to the etymology of this Standard Italian word.

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