I can sort of understand the woke left's insistence that immigrants should be taken in, on the basis that they fundamentally don't believe national borders should be considered important, and people should have the right to move from one country to another at will. Based on this, I can sort of understand their insistence that illegal immigrants shouldn't be deported either.
But what I really, really don't understand, is the insistence that dangerous, hardened criminals should not be deported, or even arrested, if they are immigrants.
I'm not talking about suspects either, but proven ganbangers and other career criminals.
Yet Andy Ngo's stream is full of reports of how wokesters are publishing ICE agents' actions and locations, in order to actively stop them from arresting and deporting these actual dangerous criminals.
I can sort of understand, logically, believing that people should be allowed to stay because they should have the right to live in another country if they so wish. But I can't see what kind of logic could possibly lead to "these members of a hyper-violent Latin American gang must not be arrested/deported".
The only thing I can see leading to this is a knee-jerk "ICE bad" reaction, which at this point amounts to a thought-terminating cliche.
It just makes no sense.
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@Gnomeshatecheese Yeah I don't get it either. https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/new-frontier-organised-immigration-crime-and-uk-sanctions
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@Gnomeshatecheese @sun Is this 100% true though? I have been under the impression that these activists are not aware of how broken some of the laws and processes are which allows known criminals to be released into the public instead of deported. So they just end up looking like morons
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese I think their rationalization is that nothing should be permitted or else it gives power to the legitimacy of deportation
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@sun @Gnomeshatecheese yeah but like how many people actually believe that?
The internet is great at making something seem like there's a majority / consensus around something when in reality it's a pretty niche opinion
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese I think the people that protest this stuff are a small minority. most people think you shouldn't be here illegally in my experience but this has a midwestern bias
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@sun @Gnomeshatecheese I still think it's a shame Biden or even Obama didn't go after all the farm workers. If you have ICE start there it will send shockwaves through the GOP as all their farmers are now helpless. If they want their workers back they gotta vote to get these people on a fast track for work visas
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese I don't think it would work because implicitly you are not paying these people legal wages or giving them legal working conditions.
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese the usual people went apeshit against the postville raid and like, the place had squalid working conditions and they had child workers.
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@sun @Gnomeshatecheese does that matter though? It will force the GOP to defend the illegal workers. You gotta take the opportunity to corner them and make them capitulate.
They can't go on TV and say "but no we need these illegals, you can't enforce immigration laws". It would destroy their reputations.
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese republican party has two factions, the business faction is totally okay with illegal labor. so every republican says they are against illegal immigration because actual voters are against it (even if they wouldn't like the consequences of deportation.) but then nothing ever gets done because the business republicans won't let it happen.
it's happening now because now is an unusual time and trump is an unusual republican.
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese this all makes sense when you understand that republican voters are basically rubes and republican politicians don't give a single fuck about them.
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@sun @Gnomeshatecheese That's why I'm saying the Dems could have forced those Republicans to go on the record saying they are OK with the illegal labor
The only option then is to get them legal status or deport them and hurt the GOP voters.
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese democrats and republicans thought they could just never do what people wanted, forever, and they are now we are experiencing the consequences of that
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@sun @Gnomeshatecheese the Dems are really really bad at leveraging the GOP voters against the GOP when there have been so many opportunities to fracture them over these kinds of issues.
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@feld @Gnomeshatecheese I do think most of them are basically on the same team. The have huge disagreements about many things, but they have class solidarity (they are rich)
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@Gnomeshatecheese everyone knows who their bad guy is and all nuance is destroyed, or at least irrelevant.
i think the rational argument for keeping criminal illegal immigrants is, they are (sometimes? what percentage?) being blackmailed by organized crime in their home country. taking pawns doesn't win a chess match, and we could instead use resources to magically rehabilitate them (effective strategies yet to be discovered).
but who cares really, like all these Issues its a shitshow that is conveniently too complex to have a sensible opinion.
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@why @Gnomeshatecheese you literally can just deport
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@sun @Gnomeshatecheese what good does that do, theyll just send them back over the border with an even higher debt to repay
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@why @Gnomeshatecheese it's one part of like a dozen things I'd do. but you can't really secure the border, yeah, border walls etc, I mean like the entire border, no way.
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@sun @why @Gnomeshatecheese I have solved this years ago on this very network. Sniper tower with a .50cal every 1.5km, four guys per tower taking 8 hours shifts with one being the backup sniper, and with radio equipment to call border patrol to coordinates when they pin down an illegal crosser.
Gear, wages and training for the entire border literally cost less than a single detention facility by published numbers.
Thousands of servicemen would very gladly guard a sniper tower within their own country rather than step on IEDs in sandniggystan in a jewish war.
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@nerthos @sun @why @Gnomeshatecheese This was solved thousands of years ago
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I can sort of understand, logically, believing that people should be allowed to stay because they should have the right to live in another country if they so wish.
Why? There is no human right to live literally wherever you want.
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@Hoss I didn't say I agree with it. I said I can kind of understand the logic.
If the premise is that "country" is not an important concept, or that it shouldn't be that, then the conclusion follows. I don't agree with the premise, but I could see where the logic comes from.
What I don't see a logic for is "we must not remove from our communities these people who belong to a hyper-violent gang". I can't figure out what sort of premises would lead to that conclusion.
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@Gnomeshatecheese the only one I can see is 'combat prejudice by making xGroup seem harmless, so hide all wrongdoing by anyone with their characteristics' see also trans. To remove the criminal, for the crimes, you have to first admit the possibility that 'someone like that' can be a criminal.
And the problem with case by case fact based analysis of individual behaviour is that there are a TONNE of keyboard warriors and brick throwers looking to say that if anyone in xGroup is a criminal, then they all are. So the baby, the bathwater, and the bath fly out a window and kill you where you walk by on the pavement underneath.
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@FeartnTired That's true.
That would fall within the good intentions paving the way to hell. Also, well-meaning idiots.
But it seems to me that when you're at a point when you're explicitly advocating for gang members and established criminals to not be deported, to the extent that you'll attempt to sabotage the officials attempting the deportations, that's beyond just being a well-meaning idiot.
I don't know, it kind of seems vitriolic in a way.
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@Gnomeshatecheese I tie this to the 'I'm never wrong' phenomenon I've notice over the last 15 years or so. People can't say 'I've changed my mind' or be convinced by new facts, they have taken a view and to be wrong about that is to lose themselves. Tis a weird thing to tie your entire self and self image to your opinions, but it's a thing I see. They CANNOT be wrong, mistaken, not aware of all facts. Some of that is to do with liability and being sued - I'll grant that, but it's also deeply personal. I assume, like bullying, it actually comes from deep insecurity. So they take solace in 'right side of history' and associating with those who agree with them, and demonising those who don't. Shore up their beliefs against any 3am doubt. Your specific example, but you see it in other things too.
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@FeartnTired That's definitely something that's also happening.
The world has gone weird.
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@Gnomeshatecheese @FeartnTired oh man this is SUCH a long game by the globalists. It comes down to ONE THING ONLY, and the foul Harari hints at it in his "useless eater" rants. COMMUNITY IS TOO CLOSE TO SOLIDARITY, BURN IT DOWN, SO THERE CAN NEVER BE ENOUGH COHESIVE SOCIETY TO HAVE A REVOLUTION.
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