elon musk's obsession with the tic tac toe of video games
https://awful.systems/post/3388357
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Sounds like he sucks at strategy, on top of being a big whiny baby about it.
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Elon he’s funny like he’s in shape
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I mean, I thought the idea of him fitting in that suit was hilarious.
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You know how when you’re into something, and you hear someone speak about it so wrongly, with confidence, that it becomes immediately clear that they’re full of shit?
That’s every chess player reading his takes on chess.
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I think that happens to him in many of the things he talks about, from games to running a website
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I mean hell, i’m a screaming dilletante and know he’s fulla shit
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That was also me when he pulled the PoE2 stunt.
Most people actually were kinda okay with the idea that he was legitimately high ranked in Diablo4; he does play games, and he clearly doesn’t have a fucking job, so he could’ve grinded enough. But then that fucking amazing stream happened that proved he was just a sad little child.
Good thing he’s being rewarded at every step of the way! All the proof I need that there is no god.
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“Legitimately high ranked” in this context means “claimed he was top 50 by registering for an opt in leaderboard site with under 5,000 users”. He wasn’t good at diablo 4 either. Personally, I’m in the camp that believes he is buying accounts or paying individuals to play accounts for him 90% of the time. Dude even had trash stat distribution in elden ring, his build was both not meta and hardly workable, no stats at a breakpoint, set up to fat roll. No MLGS, just wearing extremely heavy armor and weapons with C int scaling that you get off the ground that way. Plus, tech genius that he is, took a phone picture instead of a screenshot. It would not surprise me to learn he save edited a bad character because the total level was quite high but the hovered weapon was unupgraded.
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Personally, I’m in the camp that believes he is buying accounts or paying individuals to play accounts for him 90% of the time.
Elon Musk’s Video Game Character Caught Leveling While He Was at Inauguration
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You misunderstood me.
Before the poe2 thing came out, it was generally accepted to be possible to be him on d4. Obviously he just paid someone to do it, but it wasn’t really everyone’s opinion until recently. Now nobody can deny it.
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Polytopia is fun, but Jesus. I can’t imagine bragging about a super simple 4x at all.
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Good thoughts here
doing so would require facing a reality that is too painful to face.
This ties in directly with his belief that we’re all in a simulation but despite that, somehow is the only “real” person. It’s also why he hides behind plausible deniability for dumb shit like cheating at games. He thinks reality doesn’t matter, which is why he dangles it in everyones faces that he’s totally cheating in games and using alts on twitter, but “nyeah nyeah you can’t prove it.” It also lines up with the person he visited with at Auschwitz who stated it’s worse than Musk being a Nazi, he literally just does not care. He was unmoved. He just genuinely thinks he’s the only thing that matters.
The comparisons to Trump are apt. All Musk knows is that as long as he can lie to people he can make money, and he can use that money to obfuscate what he is doing to the courts and make them tied up for years in court to just prove the basics. He thinks none of it matters and is all a joke. He doesn’t understand that other people don’t have the means (nor the desire) to live life the way he does, because he doesn’t understand us as real at all.
His inability to believe anything is real probably is manifesting as some kind of public humiliation fetish where he gets off on people knowing he’s doing it but not being able to prove it. The Nazi salute and jokes are another aspect of this, treating reality as a total false, and treating truth and objectivity as things to be torn down because in his mind: it’s not real so nothing matters.
It’s all fucking solipsism with extra steps and he hasn’t even done the philosophical legwork… He’s just playing Polytopia and claiming it’s more rigorous than it actually is because he’s too much of a dumbfuck to know any better.
He is a deeply, deeply unwell man.
side note, beating a game’s developer is nothing to brag about, by the way. most game developers are terrible at their own games.
Also, didn’t turn out real hot for Stevie Killcreek Case… I feel bad for that woman and how she was treated by Romero and men in the gaming/game development space in general. Not a single one of her relationships with other folks in the industry worked out, and it all started because she was a Quake champ and beat Romero at a deathmatch.
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It’s all fucking solipsism with extra steps
or not, like when he told Grimes to her face that he thought she must be an ideal simulation for him
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There’s a good insight from this armchair psychoanalysis. The typical narcissist is technically capable of performing the whole pretend-to-care-for-game-theoretic-reasons behavior, provided that there is an incentive for them. However, if Elon genuinely believes himself to be Christ or Buddha or Roy, then his abilities don’t matter, because he will never have the incentive to deflate his beliefs and face his own limitations and mortality. In short, Elon’s attitude can’t be adjusted and his mental health will never improve.
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In OPs post it stuck out to me that Elon counsels his brother on shutting down empathy, to be a better CEO, and the brother complaining about how he, and not Elon, got the empathy gene.
Just coming out and saying that your brother doesn’t feel empathy with other people is certainly a choice. So is presenting it as an advantage.
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I’d prob have more respect for him if he said it was Plants vs. Zombies.
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Gotta know when to drop that nut.
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I’ve played a lot of Polytopia in my time. Probably haven’t touched in over a year but I used to participate in Discord tournaments and the like. Knowing I have likely beat Musk mercilessly in a strategy game is nice.
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I hope you have, tho I suspect he only plays against sycophants
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There is a concept I was once taught through a very long winded story about a master and his pupils, but thankfully the great Bruce Lee summarized it: “Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer just a punch and a kick was more than simply a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch - a kick is just a kick.”
One becomes a beginner when they can see the thing. You become a novice martial artist when you can differentiate a punch from a person’s arms flailing around.
One becomes an expert when they can define the thing. When they can lock down what a punch is, and can systematically separate it from other things that aren’t it.
One becomes a master when they can intuit the thing. When you can use, identify, and understand the thing no matter what shape or form it takes.
One becomes enlightened when they can apply their specific masteries as generalization. When they have mastered the art of mastery itself.
Elon is certainly an expert. He can describe things. He can define things. He can reframe things into contexts that he understands. He’s so tantalizingly close to seeing the truth, but is so far away from even comprehending how to begin connecting the dots.
I see where he is coming from regarding gaming and economics or organizational tactics. I have played many games at a competitive level, and a select few at a professional level. I know what he’s trying to get at because I was very similar when I was like ~20 and didn’t realize that the art of mastery of goes so far beyond anything an expert could fathom. I am by no means a master, but I see the trap of expertise and… maaaaannn… It’s just so disappointing to see people in positions of power get stuck running in circles and holding everyone else back.
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One becomes a beginner when they can see the thing. You become a novice martial artist when you can differentiate a punch from a person’s arms flailing around.
One becomes an expert when they can define the thing. When they can lock down what a punch is, and can systematically separate it from other things that aren’t it.
One becomes a master when they can intuit the thing. When you can use, identify, and understand the thing no matter what shape or form it takes.
One becomes enlightened when they can apply their specific masteries as generalization. When they have mastered the art of mastery itself.
Thank you for sharing that concept, that’s really good and I will keep that for future reference. It’s a quality way to describe beginner to mastery and the difference at each stage.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari for the specific concept in japanese martial arts (and sometimes applied elsewhere too)
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Elon is certainly an expert. He can describe things. He can define things.
I don’t know what context you are referring to, but I don’t think Elon is an expert at anything
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I am referring to the context in which it was written and defined above, and also inheriting the concepts laid down from the original post regarding the p2w mobile game that he clearly has achieved some level of expertise in.
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it isn’t a p2w mobile game and I see no reason to believe he’s achieved any level of expertise in it
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Elon is an Expert Beginner: he has become proficient in executing the basics of the craft by sheer repetition, but failed to develop meaningful generalizations.
The original Expert Beginner concept was defined here in terms of the Dreyfus model, but I think it’s compatible with Lee’s model as well. In your wording of Lee’s model, one becomes an Expert Beginner when their intuition is specialized for seeing the thing; they have seen so many punches that now everything looks like a punch and must be treated like a punch, but don’t worry, I’m a punch expert, I’ve seen so many punches, I definitely know what to do when punches are involved.
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I just want to focus on this extremely ridiculous quote as if one understands how unfathomably silly it is - it becomes impossible to take anything elmo says seriously (not that you should need more proof)
What elmo is trying to talk about is called game-tree complexity - the number of possible games based on the number of possible moves.
For checkers this is 10^54 - massive but obviously computable (took 18 years and finished in 2007)
For chess this is 10^120 - called the Shannon number is unimaginably massive - like if we counted it in Planck times (smallest unit of time) - checkers’ number would convert to about 300 years - chess on the other hand comes out to around 10^58 universe ages
What’s more - there’s about 10^80 atoms in the universe - so it’s physically impossible to store that many game states in a usable manner to compute a full solution of chess.
Even giving him the biggest benefit of the doubt and turning the whole observable universe into a black hole (the most information dense object imaginable) the Bekenstein bound still dictates you only have 10^96 bits to work with so it appears it’s physically impossible to compute and store a full solution of chess.
Overall this proves the point of this post - elmo literally does not believe he lives in the real world and any proof otherwise will get rejected by his solipsistic brain.
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I’m splitting hairs here, but wouldn’t the 10^96 number just need to be a bound on the Kolmogorov complexity, whose value would be uncomputable? I don’t think you can conclude solution storage is impossible, it’s possible the Kolmogorov complexity is astonishingly low and there’s an algorithm that could be stored on a drive today, it would just require brilliant insight to find it and no one is going to devote time to that for a variety of reasons.
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That’s fair - I guess that’s why I said “it appears” as I can’t confidently state something whose unknowns I don’t fully understand.
But yeah theoretically there might be a way to compress the final output into a physically possible form. Still considering the magnitude of the numbers we’re talking - this would still be a mind boggling undertaking.
I guess my point was more around elmo confidently stating that chess is solvable and using the actual complexity of the task as a way to highlight how being that confident in such a statement is absurd.
Then again maybe I feel in a similar trap so thanks for pointing it out!
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Still considering the magnitude of the numbers we’re talking about - this would still be a mind boggling undertaking.
Nowhere near to the degree you seem to think, although it will tell you something about the maximum possible Kolmogorov complexity. Let’s say you’ve got a weird computer that can read, store, and compute with the English alphabet as symbols. If you want your computer to output a word that has 10^96 letters, it sounds completely impossible, but if every letter in the word is ‘A’, then a computer program to generate that word will take up virtually no space at all relative to storing each letter directly.
More generally, a massive amount of strings with 10^96 letters will have some pattern a program requiring relatively minimal storage can exploit, but finding that program for your string could be a herculean task.
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if I’ve followed the comment chain here correctly, the problem remains that you first need to compute all possible game states, which is probably impractical, right?
and you still need to save the data for computing the numbers’ compressed version, or is there a way to compress the numbers on-the-fly that i haven’t heard of?
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You don’t necessarily need to. There’s a possibility of defining instructions for winning without that. The idea may just be hard to imagine because chess is complicated.
You can make up stupid examples of games that defy this. Maybe we dream up a game with an ungodly number of states that has an action X that is an available option every turn. If the winning strategy is just “player 1 chooses action X every turn”, you can imagine there may be a way to show that’s true without needing to simulate every single state, and there’s certainly a way to easily store and communicate this strategy.
For a ludicrously dumb win condition, maybe the first playet to press X 10,000,000 times wins. You should be able to show that pressing X every turn is a winning strategy without computing every potential state. This can be true of more complicated games too, it would just be much less obvious. Just because no one has conceived of a way to do that yet with a game such as chess doesn’t mean no one ever will.
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the first playet to press X 10,000,000 times wins
Hey look, you found another one of Elon’s favourite games.
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The way Checkers was solved was actually pretty cool. That he dismisses chess for this reason (even though it hasn’t even been solved) speaks to the kind of dorky dipshit he is.
PS: this solution was considered AI in 2007.
[Schaeffer] carried out a mere 10^14^ calculations to complete the proof in under two decades. “This pushes the envelope as far as artificial intelligence is concerned,” he says.
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Elon prefers Command & Conquer 4
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you can’t event new pieces during the game
Yeah. That’s what my (chess) captain keeps telling me.
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you got me worried for a minute that he’ll leak classified info on warthunder forum (it’ll be on twitter instead)
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No, he’d do it there, with the username Totally_not_Elon.
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I am quite certain that Chess can be fully solved
Certifiable genuis thinks an impartial game can be solved, I wish I were capaple of making brilliant insights like that. No, seriously, I missed the first day of game theory 101 and need Sprague-Grundy explained to me.
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Wait i thought chess was not an Impartial game?
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Aw shit, I haven’t played in an eternity and forgot stalemates were a thing, which I really should have taken five seconds to consider. I’m deleting my snarky comment and hoping no one other than you saw it.
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And now I wish I knew what it said! I only just recently started getting into chess and it’s really complex but I’m having fun lol
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I think what makes it not impartial is that the white player cannot move black pieces (or vice versa). in an impartial game which moves are available is only allowed to depend on the game state, not on which player you are
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white always wins
this is the method Elon prefers
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Declaring black wins draws would be more in the spirit of how the game is played at high level. I don’t think anyone seriously considers the possibility that black could have a forced win in chess.
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whatever. I’m just indicating you can turn it into a combinatorial game if you want
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Yes, that is correct and I am further embarrassed.
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We’ve got Chess 2, the Sequel and 4D chess that have solved any problems chess may have
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Iirc there have been various sequels to chess, it being tried so often and never succeeding like chess is actually a interesting point of discussion in game development.
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@Soyweiser @megaman remember when the Netflix show about chess got its own tie-in game? https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/346101/the-queens-gambit-the-board-game
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I didn’t remember as I didn’t know.
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My 3 seconds of looking at that make it more interesting than i thought it would be. I really hoped it was just a “branded” chess board, which would be very funny.
But it looks like everyone sets up 3 pre-moves and then goes from there (if i read it for a whole minute i would know).
Feels like someone thought up a chess puzzle game and then when the biggest show on TV was about chess they finally got a chance to put it out there
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Perhaps the most successful “sequel to chess” is actually the genre of chess problems, i.e., the puzzles about how Black can achieve mate in 3 (or whatever) from a contrived starting position that couldn’t be seen in ordinary (“real”) gameplay.
There are also various ways of randomizing the starting positions in order to make the memorized knowledge of opening strategies irrelevant.
Oh, and Bughouse.
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I always liked what we called kickchess. The purpose of the game is to get rid of all your pieces asap, and if you can take a piece you have to. Just turns the whole game upside down. Get rid of that queen!
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@Soyweiser @blakestacey the only "Sequel To Chess" that matters is chessboxin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJk0p-98Xzc
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Musk isnt allowed to box vy his mom.
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I have some minor things to say. First a correction (people keep saying this and it is a weird mistake) Grimes was his girlfriend, never his wife.
Then the whole thing where people say you gotta play this to understand his genius or whatever, that is all just cargo cult behavior, it is the black turtlenecks. (I recall a story of a university with a beloved, genius but somewhat odd professor to which the students looked up, they wanted to be like him. So eventually the students started to touch the walls when walking through the halls, as the professor also did that while walking, the cargo cult).
Zilis clearly understood the assignment of playing Polytopia with your emotionally stunted boss/owner (as in the business sense, clearly the workers should be their own owners), as do prob a lot of other employees he beats. Let the Wookie win.
“I am just wired for war”
Reminds me of the sort of image of the military general aristocrats of WW1 who made the war last longer and did one more assault just before the peace was signed because of their warrior honor whatever. Unrelated, here is a blog post of acoup (a real historian), listing various articles that the USA needs soldiers, not warriors (and explains the distinction), halfway somewhere.
“when you’re playing a video game, there is no empathy, right?”
That is a darkly revealing quote (like the whole thing is). More points for Zilis and the others who let Musk win.
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First a correction (people keep saying this and it is a weird mistake)
whoops! edited
on my part I think it’s because I keep seeing Elon described as having “divorced energy”
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@sc_griffith he is a Pathologically Divorced man
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You can’t be this divorced if you’ve ever actually been married, since that tends to create and/or require connecting with another human being and feeling something not unlike love, at least for long enough to get the papers files.
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