Ancestors

Toot

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 13:04

The real problem with the current AI hype is not "AI" in itself but what it is causing:

• The hype creates an expectation of huge growth in demand. Data centre companies have to start building capacity before this demand is realised, even if it never realises. As a result, data centre capacity is being built up right now at an unprecedented scale.
• This requires electricity generators to provision capacity for those future data centres, even if they are never used. (1/5)

[#]FrugalComputing

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Descendants

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 13:05

• This in turn means electricity generators are not phasing out fossil fuel generation as they want to maximise generation capacity to maximise future profits. And so global emissions from electricity generation are not decreasing at all, quite to the contrary: new fossil fuel powered electricity plants are being developed as a result and mothballed ones are brought back on line. (2/5)

[#]FrugalComputing

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 13:05

To put some figures on this: the current global data centre capacity is 55GW, which means 482 TWh/year. Global electricity generation is 30,000 TWh/y. Production of chips for data centres is currently around 21 TWh/y.

Suppose this grows by 10x in ten years (that is about 25% per year and is within current projections). Then we get 4820 TWh for the data centres and 210 for the chips so 5000 TWh or an extra 2.4 GtCO2e (on a total global CO2 budget of 12 GtCO2e). (3/5)

[#]FrugalComputing

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 13:05

If you think that all sounds crazy, the UK government has just said we need to increase the UK's AI research compute capacity by 20x in five years. Dell’s CEO has said that global data centre capacity must increase by 100x over the next 10 years. And OpenAI's Altman has said the world need 100x more GPUs production capacity, which amounts to the same.

And even if none of this happens, the damage is already being done.

(4/5)

[#]FrugalComputing

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 13:05

Needless to say, 100x growth would be a disaster: it would mean the data centres alone would consume 50,000 TWh/year. That would be 24 GtCO2e, so purely the emissions from making the servers would double of the global emissions budget to meet the climate targets. And that is without even taking into account the embodied carbon of all that infrastructure. (5/5)

[#]FrugalComputing

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-15 at 19:58

Coda: the figures in the above thread are quite handwavy. I did a more nuanced analysis and will write up an article about it. The results are a little less dramatic but the overall conclusion remains the same: the AI hype is resulting in increased emissions even if it does not deliver on its promises. And this at a critical time when emissions must come down urgently and drastically.

[#]FrugalComputing

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Barry Rowlingson on 2025-01-14 at 13:58

@wim_v12e yeah but one of the AI Zones is at Culham which has a fusion power research lab so we'll have cheap fusion power in twenty years (as they've been saying for the last fifty...).

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from geospacedman@mastodon.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 14:04

@geospacedman Well of course. And we might even revisit cold fusion ...

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by ana vldv on 2025-01-14 at 14:25

@wim_v12e I fully endorse every point of your argument, the thing is, how we can put this debate in the public sphere, within and beyond academia?

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from ana_valdi@mastodon.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 14:33

@ana_valdi

I agree, without having this public debate we can't hope to change anything. But I don't know how to tackle this, I'm clearly not very good at that.

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Sylvia Wenmackers 🦉🍀 on 2025-01-14 at 14:38

@wim_v12e Have you considered writing an opinion piece for a newspaper? For instance, you could cite your five least favourite parts of the plan and explain what you see as problematic. (So, you've almost written it.) Usually, you pitch it first, but given your credentials they will likely accept it, and then they give you a deadline (and then they add a terrible headline). If it's published, it could lead to interview requests etc. @ana_valdi

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from SylviaFysica@scholar.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 14:40

@SylviaFysica Thanks for the suggestion, I will definitely look into that!

@ana_valdi

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Thomas Fricke (he/him) on 2025-01-14 at 16:05

@wim_v12e

Thanks for calculations!

Do have a reference?

I have connected the numbers with reality. There is a big gap on all resources needed.

https://thomasfricke.de/38c3.pdf

Talk is here

https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-resource-consumption-of-ai-degrow-or-die

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from thomasfricke@23.social

Written by Tom Stoneham on 2025-01-14 at 16:44

@thomasfricke @wim_v12e

I too would love a source for the numbers. I haven't been able to find anything as useful as that for global figures (and do these include China?).

While I find them credible, I can't stick them on a slide without a reference 😀

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from tomstoneham@dair-community.social

Written by Wim🧮 on 2025-01-14 at 16:55

I'm writing a blog article about this at the moment, it will have references.

@tomstoneham

@thomasfricke

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from wim_v12e@scholar.social

Written by Tom Stoneham on 2025-01-14 at 19:11

@wim_v12e @thomasfricke

Brilliant. Thank-you

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from tomstoneham@dair-community.social

Written by osfa_2030 on 2025-01-14 at 14:06

@wim_v12e Thx, great analysis.

Might be of your interest: @ana_valdi

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from osfa_2030@climatejustice.social

Written by DoomsdaysCW on 2025-01-14 at 15:52

@wim_v12e What I don't understand is why folks store data in the cloud instead of on physical media? It's the same kind of mindset that got us into this mess, imho.

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from DoomsdaysCW@kolektiva.social

Written by Otis Scops aka Crash Course on 2025-01-14 at 17:10

@DoomsdaysCW @wim_v12e

Ofc I get what you mean, but the cloud is also 'physical media', only it's somebody else's hard drive instead of yours.

Worth reading in this context:

https://www.optoutproject.net/icloud-or-your-cloud/

And follow her @cyberlyra for lots of info how to escape surveillance and get your digital stuff back to you.

[#]privacy #Surveillance #capitalism

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from Otis_Scops@kolektiva.social

Written by DoomsdaysCW on 2025-01-14 at 17:37

@Otis_Scops Yeah, but whatever is driving the physical media in the cloud has to run all the time. With an external HD, the drive only runs when needed.

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from DoomsdaysCW@kolektiva.social

Written by Otis Scops aka Crash Course on 2025-01-14 at 17:49

@DoomsdaysCW

Of course, of course, let me tell you a secret,: I don't have anything in a cloud that can be viewed or decrypted by unauthorised people.

And the one thing I have there is my book.

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from Otis_Scops@kolektiva.social

Written by DoomsdaysCW on 2025-01-14 at 17:37

And TY for the links and suggestions! @Otis_Scops @wim_v12e @cyberlyra

=> More informations about this toot | More toots from DoomsdaysCW@kolektiva.social