Remember when people were arrested from throwing soup on paintings to protest #ClimateChange? Yeah? Well I wonder if everyone who wanted them arrested is starting to do the math.
https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/grounds-of-getty-museum-in-la-catch-fire-the-washington-posts-cartoonist-quits-over-censorship-1234729430/
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@Brad_Rosenheim wow. People in this thread not understanding that non-damaging yet highly visible PR stunts that start conversations are actually much less worse than burning a planet. People sure do like echoing statements that make no sense
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@ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
Of course even damaging ones are much less worse than burning the planet, but the thing is that they claim their protests are not damaging but sometimes they are.
When they sprayed red paint on Finnish parliament, it costed a fortune to have it cleaned and you could still see the traces last time I was there...
And I don't think it really starts conversations we NEED to have.
(I am all for damaging private jets though :P)
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@TOrynski If I came to Helsinki for the first time, and you showed me the Parliament building, and I asked about the marks, I would say, "Damn, that's cool that Finns care enough about climate change to protest!"
@ATLeagle
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@Brad_Rosenheim @ATLeagle
And most people would just say "those protesters do more harm than good, as by destroying heritage buildings they divert the conversation from the actual problem that needs to be discussed".
And they would be right, as proved by the fact that we are discussing vandalised building and not what Finns ACTUALLY do about climate change and why this is not enough.
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@TOrynski @Brad_Rosenheim i see your point, but also ask what was being done to listen to other types of protests prior to graffiti? This conversation can be easily steered if desired with "ya, it's too bad that protesters had to go to this length'
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@ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
Unfortunately other forms of protests are not being heard enough either. But it does not mean that this one works.
If anything, I think this works even worse, because it steers discussion away from the climate disaster we are facing to just ordinary vandalism.
Saying that, I don't have solution that would work. I only noting that this one works as bad, or worse, as previous things we tried. Because somehow this "easy steer" clearly does not work.
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@TOrynski @ATLeagle So let's start using the term "vandalizing the atmosphere."
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@TOrynski
And that is not just rhetorical. If we go on the offensive and use common legal terms in whatever languages we speak, it makes it harder to simply retroflect the discussion to petty crime.
@ATLeagle
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@TOrynski @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
The point is ; those precious works of art, buildings etc will be worth nothing when the planet is inhabitable. So yes, it is really stupid that a building is that precious to spend so much money to clean.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim the point is: protesting by vandalizing is counterproductive as it results in people discussing vandalizing, not the topic of the protest and, in many cases, turn people against the protesters and, in turn, against the message they are trying to put across.
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@TOrynski @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim people who don't want to change anything sure don't like change discussed so they shift it to talk about something else. And that's normal. You want a protest that will paralyze them so much that they won't fight to derail the conversation. That doesn't exist. Anything that's effective they'll try to frame differently. You do your protest and let other people do theirs. That brings us to what you're doing instead other than criticism of other people's protests which is exactly what fossil fuel lobby wants you to do. Did you damage any private jets yet?
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@alper @TOrynski @Brad_Rosenheim the person banging the table about how conversations get derailed is contributing nothing to helping the issue that they say they don't like. It's not an external conversation that is keeping the conversation on types of protests that are ok, it's right here. If someone doesn't want people focused on how protests are done, then they can focus on why the protest exists.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim I once drew a dick on the dust on the Trumps helicopter with my finger, does it count?
Seriously tho no, I don't believe those protests are productive. I'd rather continue on the education front. Destroying historical buildings or artefacts leads to nowhere and harms our common heritage. But while I am not up for vandalism, I don't care if some jets got vandalised, nobody needs private jets, they are rich guys toys, fuck them.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim you are making mistake by assuming that people who don't like vandalism are against fight with climate change. This might be true for some, but there are people who don't like this kind of protests because they think it's actually harmful to the cause and is making things worse.
They might have different opinion about best methods but it doesn't mean they are against your goals.
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@TOrynski @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
I'm expecting you to block me too so here I want to leave you with this thinking your heart is in the right place; please look at the thread above again and see who brought up the counter argument to shift the conversation. No one is immune to propaganda and about violence, people who bring suffering to masses for their own benefit won't stop by nicely asking or academics discussing. It's been 70 years since they figured it out. Cheers.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
Nah, you good. You are not attacking me personally, we just disagree on some matters, which is absolutely fine.
As for your point: I only wanted us to speak about facts so pointed out that those protests that are said to not cause damage can actually cause damage. And then y'all jumped on me saying that if I am against vandalism (which I am, but it was not my point) then surely I must be pro climate disaster too somehow. Which you are of course wrong about.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
As for meritum - we knew about this for longer. The effect of fossil emmission to the climate was known in XIX century already.
I simply believe annoying ordinary people who can't do much about it is counterproductive in many ways. Aggressive protests should be aimed at decissive people (that's why I am ok with vandalising private jets). The public should be educated how to help by making small changes they are capable of.
That's where I stand.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
I give you an example from my own life: I was caught up in a blockade of the climate protesters once. I was way behind in the traffic, I could only see them because I drove bigger vehicle so I can see over the roofs of the cars in front of me.
To kill time we had a chat with a guy from a car next to me about what can be done. I think I'd be able to convince him that he does not need to drive a big SUV in London. But our conversation was cut short because...
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
...some morons decided to make noise and rev their engines up "to annoy those woke idiots". It ended up in a terrible noise.
Some lady was crying because she was on the way for an important hospital appoitment she has been waiting for months. She was in the black cab, as she was disabled, so it's not like she could really go for the subway.
I didn't mind, I was paid per hour anyway. But I had an urgent load on my van and I was supposed to go with it to...
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
...Stansted Airport. I wasn't able to make it on time. As a result I had to transfer it to another vehicle that drove with it all the way to Brussels to put it on the airport there and then drove back empty.
Was it helpful for the environment? Not really.
Has discussion shifted thanks to those protests - judging from the fact it was several years ago and since then Britain loosened their green targets - I don't think so.
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@alper @ATLeagle @Brad_Rosenheim
But I bet many people that were stuck with me in this traffic jam were pissed and now on hearing "climate change activist" their first reaction will be "those bloody kids that block the roads" and anger. Do you really think having a conversation about climate matters with them will be easier now?
And as per those, who can really influence the policy? They don't give a fuck, they were probably flying private jet to London City airport above our heads anyway.
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@TOrynski @alper @ATLeagle Ultimately, if we keep doing blockades like that, day in and day out, people will then have to take sides. People who were knee-jerk revving their engines that day in the blockade may end up on the right side of the argument with time to think about it.
We need consistent disruptive protests with funded medical care and food distribution for those who need it. It is really more complex than simply protesting every once in a while to get on the news.
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