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When haters deny HTML’s status as a programming language, they’re showing they don’t understand what a language really is. Language is not instructing an interlocutor what to do in a way that leaves no room for other interpretations; it is better and richer than that. Tim Carmody, HTML Is Actually a Programming Language. Fight Me If you need a bit more proof that HTML can do dynamic, interactive, logic-oriented tasks, see the article I've been working on and…
https://chriscoyier.net/2025/01/06/11937/
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@chriscoyier It’s definitely a computer language, but “programing language” implies programming logic, which HTML does not have (ignoring tags). It’s called HTML and not HTPL for a reason.
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@brandon @chriscoyier Honestly; the “requirement” of logic to be valid “programming” is greatly over-valued. There is nothing special about logic in a language. And there is gigantic complexity in markup, css, a11y that requires expertise and is independent of loops and if/else. It’s all still programming.
I find “logic” a rather trite distinction that has been used for way to long as gatekeeping more than as anything with practical use.
[Edit, tpyos]
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@mattwilcox Not saying it to dismiss HTML/CSS – I love them both and fully acknowledge them as technical skills.
Downhill skiing is also incredibly complex and requires a lot of technical skill; no one is calling that programming though.
I don’t see how naming things semantically counts as gatekeeping.
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@brandon The naming itself isn’t gate keeping per-se; if people were just fair about naming and kept it at that then there’s a meaningful nuance to “programming” vs… well, what would you call practitioners of HTML/CSS/XML etc?
But reality is that there is a long and nasty history of people who “can program” being first class computer people, and those who “can’t” relegated to jokes, lesser wages, and looked down on. When the job is just as complex, and uses the same sort of skills.
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@brandon In the end; what is the point of the distinction, in the end its all “we write text, that is interpreted by some computing environment, to produce an end result that other people can use to do things they otherwise can’t”. Why does the existence of conditionals in that language matter?
It doesn’t. In practicality it doesn’t. In nerd politics, and wage suppression, and knowledge siloing, and status preening; it does.
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@mattwilcox It matters in a hiring context, at least! If I’m looking for someone to help work on Craft, I need someone who understands programming concepts (PHP specifically doesn’t really matter; programming logic is pretty consistent across languages). If I’m looking for someone to help redesign the website, that’s a different set of skills.
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@brandon Yeah but… I do not design. I code. I code html and css and js. Would someone like me apply for a Craft job because of the word programmer?
Is there really, genuinely, any confusion there? That isn’t instantly obvious?
How would you hire a front end specialist that doesnt design? What would you call what that person does? Genuine question as someone who’s had that career for near two decades. What am I? I’m not a designer. I only dabble in PHP and BASH.
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@brandon Looking one level deeper: I use TWIG. Am I a programmer now? Because I can use a loop and an if now? That tiny tiny bit of language feature compared to the vast majority of everything else? Does that matter if I were to basically be doing 95% not-conditionals? Does it matter, despite being able to tick a box for “this is programming now”?
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@mattwilcox Fair points, but idk… the closer you can get to aptly and succinctly describing your skill set, the better imo.
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@brandon True; I just (personally) don’t think that one word makes much difference. There’s a vast array within “programming” that can cover not just details but whole sectors of “core knowledge”. Do you know about memory management, file locks, databases (of any type), networking (of many types)… it’s all “programming”, and all “niche” and the relevance of “code patterns” varies between all. So why is ”computer code without conditionals” not programming?
IMO, it’s historical.
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@mattwilcox @brandon Programmer vs. non-programmer. Degree vs. no degree. Designer vs. someone with poor artistic taste. Show me someone with (1) critical thinking skills and (2) a desire to always learn and I’m happy.
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@brad @brandon 100%
I don’t normally get too caught up with labels - for that reason, they don’t normally matter much; except sometimes it’s worth it to note when there is some surrounding contextual issue.
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@mattwilcox @brad Oh, you both can go lick a porcupine. And by that I mean eat some ice cream. Because who cares what words mean!
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@brandon @brad lol! XD
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