Ancestors

Toot

Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 06:20

To the new year in Jerusalem rebuilt.

Though funnily enough I've been in Jerusalem this year, six times, more than my entire life (just twice or thrice...)

But I haven't been to the Muslim quarter. Well, not above ground. The city of peace is now a city of walls.

As a wise guy on YouTube once said, my country is now a shadow of its former self, under a coat of normalcy.

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Descendants

Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 06:36

I have a lot of thoughts regarding Jerusalem. The city is an archaeological treasure trove. The entire Muslim quarter is built on top of another city—Israelite Jerusalem.

Al-aqza (the silver "kipa", i.e. a 3D arch) and the Golden "kipa" (sorry, blame my country's MoE; I only know the Hebrew names for those) are built quite literally on top of the actual Temple, with the Golden arch on top of the most holiest.

I hope we will one day be able to reach mutual agreement, to not destroy Al Aqza—as beyond religion, you just don't destroy ancient, important buildings, that'd be against everything the State of Israel stands for—and yet still have the Temple, with some miracle of architecture and diplomacy (there shall be no church on top of the home mountain though; on my dead body).

Tolkien has made his dwarves into his world's Jews. Would be ironic if the third Jewish Temple would then be mostly underground, no?

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:40

@laxla

you just don't destroy ancient, important buildings, that'd be against everything the State of Israel

"On 19 October, an Israeli air strike destroyed a building in the compound of the Saint Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church in the heart of Gaza’s old city, where an estimated 450 internally displaced members of Gaza’s small Christian community were sheltering. The strike killed 18 civilians and injured at least 12 others.

Ramez al-Sury, who lost his three children and 10 other relatives in the attack, told Amnesty International: 'My heart died with my children that evening. All my children were killed: Majid, 11, Julie, 12, and Suhail, 14. I have nothing left. I should have died with my children.'"

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-nowhere-safe-in-gaza-unlawful-israeli-strikes-illustrate-callous-disregard-for-palestinian-lives/

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:44

@laxla I understand where you are coming from, and I do think that wanting to preserve ancient buildings is noble.

I just think that maybe the state of Israel doesn't quite stand for what you think it does. Just as the United States doesn't stand for what I was originally taught it stood for.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 06:51

@burnoutqueen "Maybe the state of Israel doesn't stand for what you think it does?"

It fucking does. The State of Israel stands for rebuilding, not destruction. This is not what my country stands for.

How rude of you to suggest the entire essence of my culture, people, and country is war, and killing.

Is your country's essence ecocide, and capitalism for the sake of capitalism, and xenophobia to no end? No, it's not, it's that of freedom, of equality, and of one's ability to succeed based purely on their skill.

This is incredibly rude, especially of an American, of a westerner.

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:53

@laxla

I don't like the American state either.

This is not an attack on you. I am not implying anything about you or your values.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 06:56

@burnoutqueen yes, it is, and yes, you are, actually.

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:59

@laxla

If you told me about what America did in Korea or Chile, I would not feel offended like this.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 07:10

@burnoutqueen I'm offended by you saying my country stands for violence and nothing else.

You haven't visited the Kotel Tunnels. You haven't visited the Museum of Israel. You haven't visited the Gamla Synagogue. You weren't here. You don't know the culture, the people, what we do during peace, and yet, you judge.

The State of Israel stands for restorative archeology. Yes, we have a legacy of violence. But that legacy does not change what Israel stands for. Collecting knowledge and preserving it ad infinitum. The People of the Book. Including this bloody, bloody legacy. The Bible itself details the exact crimes that were committed to first gain control of this land, and history books will detail what we've done to live in it the second time.

So, please. Stop this nonsense. Think what you're standing for. Think what point you're even trying to make.

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 07:15

@laxla

I disagree with anarchists on many issues, but I would say their assessment of the nature of the state has many merits.

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 07:17

@laxla

I am specifically talking about a state, a government and its associated military. I'm talking about the ideology of that state.

I'm not talking about the Jewish people. I'm not talking about ancient structures built by dead civilizations. I'm not talking about you or your specific beliefs.

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Written by Chupacabra 78704 on 2025-01-01 at 06:56

@burnoutqueen My 1873n gun can win this fught,

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:54

@laxla

Is your country's essence ecocide, and capitalism for the sake of capitalism, and xenophobia to no end?

Yes, actually. Ngl

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:56

@laxla

The essence of the United States is that it was founded on genocide and profit seeking, and the best aspects of this country are directly rooted in the resistance against these things.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 06:59

@burnoutqueen that's your country, and if that's what you think it is, that's your choice.

But I prefer a better legacy. You'd call it denial, I call it ending a cycle of violence.

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 07:01

@laxla

I think there is an important distinction between your preferred version of your country and the country as it currently exists.

I was making a commentary about how it actually exists.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 06:55

@burnoutqueen you don't understand where you're standing here.

You're talking about ancient, ancient history. In which your culture is one of crusaders, not of preservers.

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Written by Jackie on 2025-01-01 at 06:58

@laxla

I have my values regardless of the culture of the people who existed before me.

Socialism and anti fascism did not exactly exist 2025 years ago.

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Written by Alon on 2025-01-01 at 07:01

@laxla The mutual agreement is already there, and is called the Status Quo: Al-Aqsa is a purely Muslim site, not a Jewish one, with Jewish prayer forbidden. This has been the position of Jewish rabbis for millennia: Jewish prayer at the former Temple Mount is forbidden, because e.g. there's risk of entering the former location of the Holiest of Holies. This is still the position of the important rabbis of the present era, even rather racist ones like Ovadia Yosef.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 07:17

@Alon yes. But I'm talking symbolically. The conflict won't end until both sides are satisfied. That means you need some Temple to be declared. Likely underground.

This is a message of hope, though, not a call to action. I know the history of this place. Probably better than most people, even though I don't know a lot. Because when the conflict truly ends, people will be able to consider each other enough to share the Home Mountain. That's what this is truly about.

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Written by Alon on 2025-01-01 at 07:21

@laxla Religiously speaking, both sides are satisfied with the Status Quo compromise. If anything, it's a lot more satisfactory than the compromise among different Christian denominations about who gets control of certain churches. The people who aren't satisfied are a bunch of terrorists like the Jewish Underground, and Moshe Feiglin, who Netanyahu made sure to eliminate politically. Meanwhile, the actual Jewish religion is very clear that rebuilding the Temple is forbidden.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 07:32

@Alon

You're mostly correct. The Third Temple is symbolic. The Third Temple, de facto, exists—the Synagogue under the Western Wall. But it's the symbolism that's missing, the mutual agreement of Muslims and Jews that the Temple should be there, although this is not a perfect solution. That'd only be possible where hostilities have lowered by a lot. This is what this post is about, peace.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 07:39

@Alon you said the mutual agreement exists, but it kinda doesn't. It's a status quo, as you said. It's not a peaceful one, though.

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Written by Alon on 2025-01-01 at 08:24

@laxla The symbolism of the Third Temple as a physical place is a fringe one. It's not in the Jewish religion, it's not in Labor or Revisionist Zionism, it's in some elements of Religious Zionism but only the more violent ones. So, yeah, there are people who are dissatisfied, and those people are the types that beat up Arabs for fun.

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Written by Laxystem on 2025-01-01 at 09:33

@Alon I don't know what point you're disagreeing with, but anyway: you're wrong.

The Third Temple, in Judaism vanilla, is physical, and would be where the Golden Kipa is. Simple as that. That is not the same thing as a Third Bayit.

Sure, only Smotrich+ are "dissatisfied", but I don't see how this affects anything?

But, The Third Temple already has a physical place, the Western Wall. You already have a physical place. What you're missing is the symbolism of it actually being the Temple.

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Written by Alon on 2025-01-01 at 10:21

@laxla Symbolism for who?, is the question. The rabbinical establishment makes it clear that the Third Temple is not to be founded until the Messiah comes, and until then, prayer is to be restricted to the Western Wall. The notion that a physical Third Temple needs to be built requires sliding in some assumptions that go into the margins of Religious Zionism, like that the state is itself the coming of the Messiah.

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