Ancestors

Written by Alex (Podcast Guru) on 2024-12-04 at 10:48

Regarding the "Walletpocalypse" that's coming (last P2.0 podcast episode). 😀 Is the idea to have more alternatives to Alby to do V4V payments? Alby has Oauth and a nice API for payments and it was quite easy to integrate. Does Strike (or any other alternatives) have that? @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Alex (Podcast Guru) on 2024-12-04 at 10:54

@adam @dave @merryoscar It would be really cool to allow people to use as many different wallets as possible, but all this stuff is rather new to me and I don't quite see how it is technically possible. Will bolt11 invoices help with that? We are not talking about podcast app users having to manually pay for every split as an invoice?

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 13:48

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

Yes, with Bolt 11, every split will have an invoice.

in the value block will be an lnaddress or lnurlp (there's no way to determine what it is yet).

1. The app will take algrid@podcasthost.com (the lnurl) and use that to look find the options file

2. If no options file is returned, then it will assume that it's an lnurlp, then use that to request the Bolt 11 callback. If there is an options file, it will return the Bolt 11 callback in the file.

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 13:51

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

3. With the call back, the app will send an invoice request with the amount of the invoice in the request.

4. an invoice will be sent back, and the listener will be able to pay it.

5. This happens for every split.

6. I think there's APIs to automate the payment, so they don't each have to be approved, but I haven't looked into it.

7. Yes, there are 3 or 4 network calls per split. It's resource intensive, especially for mobile, and it's a major drawback.

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 13:54

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

8. Keysend is not being widely supported by major wallets, so alternatives are being investigated. Bolt 11 isn't perfect, but without easy listener wallets that support Keysend, Keysend ends up having it's own problems, like listeners would have to host their own nodes or pay for a host. Hopefully, Bolt 11 allows for easier listener wallets, but is harder on the app devs.

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Written by Sir Spencer, Wolf of KC :pci: on 2024-12-04 at 16:44

@StevenB

keysend will still be supported for everyone out here built that way though, correct? I know we operate under the "Rules for Standards Makers" which include:

-One way is better than two

No matter how much better the new way is, you'll still have to support the old way.

And also:

-No breakage

Version 2 of your format should be backward compatible. This means that a version 1 file is a valid version 2 file. Don't break the installed base.

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 18:43

@SirSpencer

For my apps, I plan on supporting keysend through Alby Hub, and lnurl through... Strike API? But as a podcaster, I'm not sure having a keysend value in the value block will make sense as more apps don't support keysend. If every node can receive either keysend or lnurl, and everyone is moving towards lnurl, I can see a situation in which new apps just support lnurl so they don't have to worry about supporting an outdated (though still valid) thing

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 19:03

@SirSpencer

So, keysend addresses are still valid, but there's no guarantee that all the apps or wallets will continue to support it. To some degree people's freedom to choose will dictate the direction wallets go more than a standard will. If none of the easy wallet providers support keysend, any app that wants wide adoption will end up moving away from supporting keysend to whatever the wider audience is using. I don't like the change, but I have to ride it.

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Sir Spencer, Wolf of KC :pci: on 2024-12-04 at 19:58

@StevenB

I understand the addition of LNURL, but the abandonment of keysend (a change that would break v1 feeds that never update, which will be a non-zero number) makes zero sense to me. It should of course still remain possible to send keysend payments within apps that support it currently; it benefits no one to do extra work to pull out a keysend feature already in play in apps that currently use it.

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 20:21

@SirSpencer

As long as Alby Hub and the Alby API continue to work, I'll continue to use it for keysend, but it will only work for those willing to connect their node to Alby Hub. Other apps, I don't know their plans, but sadly, I think you're going to find keysend is supported less and less by newly developed apps. It's not what I want, but it's the way I feel the wind blowing.

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Sir Spencer, Wolf of KC :pci: on 2024-12-04 at 20:27

@StevenB

imagine being blown by the wind 😅 there's not even a storm around.

I see no indication that Alby Hub and the Alby API are going anywhere, so that's a big relief.

@algrid @adam @dave @merryoscar

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Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-04 at 20:53

@SirSpencer

Nope, no indication. And I'm going to continue to support Alby. They've been good to us for the last few years, and I think we got spoiled with easy, free, listener wallets.

I think some apps want to grow their user base, and I don't fault them for that, so they will move in whatever direction is the 'easiest' to onboard a listener. Different strokes for different folks, and I still think keysend is a better way to do things, but I can support both.

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Toot

Written by Dave on 2024-12-05 at 21:04

@StevenB @SirSpencer KeySend is still the most elegant way for sure. The entire lightning infrastructure ecosystem (other than Zebedee/Alby) treat it as a second class citizen though. LnBits has had an open PR for 2 years to include Keysend support and won't merge it. 😞

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Descendants

Written by Steven Bell :pci: :pc2red: on 2024-12-05 at 21:20

@dave @SirSpencer

Everything we do gets sort of treated like a second class citizen. It's always weird reading we need to figure out a way to extend podcasting and modernize podcasting, and it's like "We have been... for five years now."

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Written by Dr Brian of London (Dev)🖥 on 2024-12-05 at 21:25

@dave @StevenB @SirSpencer

A few points: every keysend payment for even 1 sat IS an individual invoice.

Keysend really is quite elegant sending the request for the invoice via the Lightning system itself.

My personal belief as to why nobody is using keysend? They never wrote decent documentation or sample code.

My sample code in python remains the absolute best guide to doing it ever written and it's very obscure.

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Written by Dr Brian of London (Dev)🖥 on 2024-12-05 at 21:25

@dave @StevenB @SirSpencer Route hints don't matter: pleb routing has disappeared, everything goes through huge central nodes.

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Written by Dave on 2024-12-05 at 21:31

@brianoflondon @StevenB @SirSpencer Pleb routing still exists through PI. Maybe one of the last vestiges. But, I do take your point that the routing has become more "spoke" and less "web".

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Written by Dave on 2024-12-05 at 21:32

@brianoflondon @StevenB @SirSpencer And, Brian makes a good point. Keysend is still an invoice. It just generates the preimage locally instead of at the receiver.

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Written by Sir Spencer, Wolf of KC :pci: on 2024-12-06 at 19:09

@dave true, but that's just semantics. Keysend is a push payment that requires no action from the recipient. @brianoflondon @StevenB

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Written by Dr Brian of London (Dev)🖥 on 2024-12-06 at 20:08

@SirSpencer @dave @StevenB Here's what your node is doing in the background to receive a single sat. 🙂

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Written by Dr Brian of London (Dev)🖥 on 2024-12-05 at 22:11

@dave @StevenB @SirSpencer looking at my 100's of payments per week almost all are going to big destinations.

I have one user at the moment with their own node and I opened a channel for him.

I won't open a channel to a small node. Only the big nodes are worth the investment in capital. I will say that some of the big nodes do occasionally route through me but it's not a significant income to justify the investment.

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Written by Barry Luijbregts on 2024-12-05 at 21:33

@dave @StevenB @SirSpencer so zebedee is also still an option for KeySend right? Didn’t they create a one pager or something? Is this a viable option for podcasters and listeners?

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Written by Dave on 2024-12-05 at 21:34

@podhome @StevenB @SirSpencer It's what Fountain is using on the back-end. They never finalized the one pager. But, that's partially my fault, as I didn't follow up because I was so tied up with our new project. It's still on my to-do list.

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