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● 06.16.09

●● Case Study: The Harms of Mono

Posted in Microsoft, Mono, Novell at 7:28 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

The following chat took place 2 hours ago. Someone who goes by the name “IsBob” shared his story. Here are the unedited logs, which are hopefully as self-explanatory as they need be. █

• IsBob () has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:01splosionhttps://www.furk.net/ hereJun 16 11:01IsBobhi thereJun 16 11:01DaemonMDVyou know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once?Jun 16 11:02DaemonMDVironically it was used against the MPAAJun 16 11:02DaemonMDVso I’m all for itJun 16 11:02fewa has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jun 16 11:03DaemonMDVthe MPAA was distributing a “University anti-piracy toolkit” which used Xubuntu as its baseJun 16 11:03DaemonMDVin violation of the GPLJun 16 11:03DaemonMDVso Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their siteJun 16 11:03DaemonMDVwhich they didJun 16 11:03IsBobI’m looking for some adviceJun 16 11:04IsBobmy boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about MonoJun 16 11:04IsBobwe’re in a deal with Microsoft currentlyJun 16 11:04IsBobthe idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NETJun 16 11:05IsBoband well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s imageJun 16 11:05IsBobthe fact is, I’m not comfortable with doing such thingsJun 16 11:06schestowitzHi, IsBob Jun 16 11:06schestowitzWhat advice do you need?Jun 16 11:07schestowitzAnd how do I know that you’re not pulling our leg?Jun 16 11:07IsBobhuh?Jun 16 11:07schestowitzWe’ve been trolled a lot recentlyJun 16 11:07IsBobMy problem is, I’m in an untenable position nowJun 16 11:07schestowitzSo I am being cautiousJun 16 11:07schestowitzA company using Mono does not have a problemJun 16 11:08IsBobI’ve made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use itJun 16 11:08schestowitzNot in the sense of public imageJun 16 11:08schestowitzThe issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread itJun 16 11:08schestowitzNot with usersJun 16 11:08IsBoband now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my managementJun 16 11:08mib_q79ffb has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)Jun 16 11:08schestowitzMicrosoft spreads its APIJun 16 11:09schestowitzMono is good for MicrosoftJun 16 11:09schestowitzFor more than one reasonJun 16 11:09IsBobI know all of that, I’ve seen it from the insideJun 16 11:09schestowitzit is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc.Jun 16 11:09schestowitzDepending on the area of useJun 16 11:09schestowitzMono is about monocultureJun 16 11:09schestowitzMaking all enterprise do it the One Microsoft WayJun 16 11:10schestowitzc#, AD, VS, XAML, erc.Jun 16 11:10schestowitzetcJun 16 11:10oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:10schestowitzHi, oiaohm Jun 16 11:12IsBobschestowitz: I’ve tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we’re stuck in a deal where we’re making them migrate awayJun 16 11:14oiaohmHi schestowitzJun 16 11:15schestowitzIsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono?Jun 16 11:16Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@2001:690:2380:7770:21b:24ff:fed0:3f98) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:17schestowitzIf it’s some C# code, then you can still port to JavaJun 16 11:17schestowitzOracle is very committed to JavaJun 16 11:17schestowitzIt’s one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apartJun 16 11:17IsBobthere are 500 kloc already, it’s way too late to migrate to another languageJun 16 11:18schestowitzOracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing…Jun 16 11:18IsBobbut anyway, that’s not my problem right nowJun 16 11:18schestowitzIsBob: what’s running it? Mono?Jun 16 11:19schestowitzMono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoptionJun 16 11:19schestowitzMono too slow?Jun 16 11:19schestowitzMigrate to .NETJun 16 11:19schestowitzLike free supperJun 16 11:19IsBobcurrently Mono, and we’re migrating to .Net yesJun 16 11:19schestowitzOr trial versionwareJun 16 11:19mib_v1wqax (i=4e965300@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-facdafd52c83c84f) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:19schestowitzOracle might do something similar with mysqlJun 16 11:19IsBobmy problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree withJun 16 11:20schestowitzWhy migrate to .NET? I’m curious.Jun 16 11:20oiaohmIsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming.Jun 16 11:20IsBobI’m not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they’ve been pretty elusive about thatJun 16 11:21oiaohmI am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal.  OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed.Jun 16 11:21IsBobone of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our clientJun 16 11:21schestowitzIsBob: so you think they might come to them and say “look, you’re using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?”Jun 16 11:21schestowitzIsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts peopleJun 16 11:22schestowitzIt’s a form of bribeJun 16 11:22IsBobclearlyJun 16 11:22schestowitzCommon. Many examples in MS’c aseJun 16 11:22schestowitzMS’sJun 16 11:22IsBobI don’t think they might do it, i think they already didJun 16 11:22schestowitzMono is a rampJun 16 11:22IsBobassorted with a nice “gift”Jun 16 11:22oiaohmYou are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips.Jun 16 11:22schestowitzhad they used Java, migration would be complicatedJun 16 11:22schestowitzBut this is EEE – embrace, extend…Jun 16 11:23oiaohmSo clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBobJun 16 11:23oiaohmThere are technical issues with mono.Jun 16 11:23oiaohmThat can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue.Jun 16 11:24mib_v1wqax has quit (Client Quit)Jun 16 11:24mib_kcgay0 (i=4e965300@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fac017cbd0fac013) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:24DaemonMDVhttp://www.macworld.com/article/137…Jun 16 11:24DaemonMDVThe guy buys 2,419 DRM’d 129k tracksJun 16 11:25mib_kcgay0 has quit (Client Quit)Jun 16 11:25IsBobmy N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we’re strongly “encouraged” to publish things that will increase Mono’s acceptanceJun 16 11:25DaemonMDVthen complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first placeJun 16 11:25DaemonMDV(256k no DRM)Jun 16 11:25schestowitzIsBob: encouraged by whom?Jun 16 11:25schestowitzNovell? Microsoft?Jun 16 11:26IsBobby our managementJun 16 11:26DaemonMDVdear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you’d think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork overJun 16 11:26DaemonMDVJun 16 11:26IsBobnot sure who’s behindJun 16 11:26IsBobof course we already have a big contract with NovellJun 16 11:26schestowitzIt’s the same with MS/Novell cotnractsJun 16 11:26schestowitzI know cause I was toldJun 16 11:26IsBoband they probably don’t want to have to renegociate itJun 16 11:26schestowitzThey go to clients…Jun 16 11:26splosionbe a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented forJun 16 11:26schestowitzAnd they tell them to put “IP” in the press releasesJun 16 11:26schestowitzAs in, we’ll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote theseJun 16 11:27DaemonMDVyeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was youJun 16 11:27schestowitzI.e. promote ‘Linux tax’ (MS patentsJun 16 11:27IsBobsplosion: I’m pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaksJun 16 11:27schestowitzFor a bribeJun 16 11:27DaemonMDV(goes without saying)Jun 16 11:27IsBobI already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the pastJun 16 11:27oiaohmDoes not matter really IsBob.  IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux.Jun 16 11:27schestowitzsplosion: +1Jun 16 11:27splosionIsBob: bummerJun 16 11:27DaemonMDVEasy URPMI is still not back upJun 16 11:28DaemonMDVoddJun 16 11:28oiaohmBasically your bosses should be asking who is going to win.   IBM and Orcale or MS.Jun 16 11:28DaemonMDVbut shows how much people depend on less than legal stuffJun 16 11:28DaemonMDVfrankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses itJun 16 11:29schestowitzSo basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NETJun 16 11:29schestowitzThen it can start shouting “IP”  and “thieves” and offer .NET (Windows only)Jun 16 11:29schestowitzIt’s so predictableJun 16 11:29oiaohmBoth Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz.Jun 16 11:29oiaohmAs with all battles there are some wins and some losses.Jun 16 11:30DaemonMDVI found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure deviceJun 16 11:30DaemonMDVprobably why it’s so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync itJun 16 11:30oiaohmIn the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term.Jun 16 11:30IsBobschestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soonJun 16 11:31IsBoband I wonder how many of the similar statements we’ve seen recently have been made by people in the same situationJun 16 11:31oiaohmCan you still cover emerging techs IsBobJun 16 11:31oiaohmlike vala from gnome and state of samba.Jun 16 11:31schestowitzIsBob: bought opinionsJun 16 11:32schestowitzMicrosoft does lots of itJun 16 11:32schestowitzE.g. Tesco example from last week in BNJun 16 11:32schestowitzASUS’ fake “Windows is better”Jun 16 11:32schestowitz“vendor recommends Vista” (Microsoft bribes for this too)Jun 16 11:32oiaohmCreativity the say not to say anything bad against mono.   There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs.Jun 16 11:32DaemonMDVof course it is, you know just what to expect out of itJun 16 11:32DaemonMDVcoughJun 16 11:32schestowitz“We’re interested in IP peace of mind” (not exact quote)Jun 16 11:32schestowitzBut I never expected better from a company of thugsJun 16 11:33schestowitzBribing people to utters marketing liesJun 16 11:33IsBobI wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent movesJun 16 11:33schestowitzAnd later they point to it..Jun 16 11:33schestowitzAnd say…Jun 16 11:33DaemonMDVschestowitz: According to Alexa’s site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going upJun 16 11:33schestowitz“Look, Dell recommends Vista”Jun 16 11:33DaemonMDVbut Microsoft.com has gone down over 5%Jun 16 11:33schestowitzand “HP recommends Vista”Jun 16 11:33DaemonMDVin this quarterJun 16 11:33schestowitzAnd “everyone loves Mono”Jun 16 11:34DaemonMDVdespite all the Windows 7 blitzJun 16 11:34schestowitz“Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial”Jun 16 11:34schestowitzDon’t get me started on the Vista7 slogJun 16 11:34schestowitzThey bribe bloggersJun 16 11:34schestowitzThey bribe journalistsJun 16 11:34DaemonMDVit still dwarfs any Linux distro’s website hitsJun 16 11:34schestowitzAnd they attack those who say the truth Jun 16 11:34DaemonMDVbut it is on the way downJun 16 11:34oiaohmAre those hits counting windows update DaemonMDVJun 16 11:35schestowitzIt plays dirttyJun 16 11:35schestowitz[on its way down]Jun 16 11:35DaemonMDVwell, that’s not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertisingJun 16 11:35DaemonMDVnoJun 16 11:35DaemonMDVonly browsersJun 16 11:35DaemonMDVMicrosoft.com is the 18th most trafficked site in the United StatesJun 16 11:36IsBobit pains me to see all of that because I’m exactly in the same situation, with hands tiedJun 16 11:36DaemonMDVUbuntu was like 2400-somethingJun 16 11:36schestowitzWindows Update is Akamai (Linux)Jun 16 11:36IsBobI wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crapJun 16 11:36schestowitzDaemonMDV: nopeJun 16 11:36schestowitzAlexa is no gold standardJun 16 11:36oiaohmPeople finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet.Jun 16 11:36schestowitzIt’s stupid to even make it believableJun 16 11:36schestowitzIsBob: join the fightJun 16 11:36DaemonMDVtechnet is a different domainJun 16 11:36schestowitzExpose what you canJun 16 11:37schestowitzIt’s possible to do bothJun 16 11:37schestowitzDo the job and leaking the truthJun 16 11:37schestowitzMany things in BN are based on whistle blowersJun 16 11:37oiaohmJust had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV.Jun 16 11:37PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:37oiaohmIsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:37oiaohmsometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:38schestowitzForbidden = “we are doing something bad”Jun 16 11:38schestowitzOr “don’t ask”Jun 16 11:38schestowitzHonest people work openlyJun 16 11:38schestowitzLike here in BNJun 16 11:38schestowitzWe don’t do PMsJun 16 11:39schestowitzAnd some people still try to trip us up this wayJun 16 11:39oiaohmI have had to work under all sorts of different conditions.Jun 16 11:39DaemonMDVhttp://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/15/th…Jun 16 11:40oiaohmLot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective.Jun 16 11:40DaemonMDVAlso, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs.Jun 16 11:40DaemonMDVlmaoJun 16 11:40oiaohmGod that knife is useless.Jun 16 11:41oiaohmSlash stab method would still work perfectly with it.Jun 16 11:41DaemonMDVwell, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UKJun 16 11:43DaemonMDVcan’t really go too hard on itJun 16 11:43oiaohmBesides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times.Jun 16 11:43DaemonMDVJun 16 11:43DaemonMDVwell, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it?Jun 16 11:44DaemonMDVso I can’t stab anyone?Jun 16 11:44schestowitzPeople will DIY their knivesJun 16 11:44schestowitzWhat a stupid ideaJun 16 11:44DaemonMDVMaybe I’ll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someoneJun 16 11:44DaemonMDVhehJun 16 11:44schestowitzMaybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchenJun 16 11:44schestowitzAnd ban metalJun 16 11:44schestowitzOr…Jun 16 11:44schestowitz“Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?”Jun 16 11:45DaemonMDVwell get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knivesJun 16 11:45DaemonMDVthen someone breaks into your houseJun 16 11:45schestowitzThey relocate the crimeJun 16 11:45Np237 (n=joss@diva.malsain.org) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:45DaemonMDVand you wish you had a knife to protect yourself withJun 16 11:45Np237heyaJun 16 11:45schestowitzGood luck going to people’s house confiscating all the old utensilsJun 16 11:45schestowitzNp237: hey, what’s up?Jun 16 11:45*IsBob has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 16 11:45

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