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Posted in IRC Logs at 6:57 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz
Enter the IRC channel now
ZiggyFishhttp://www.computerworld.com/action/articl…Sep 06 00:07ZiggyFishOpen source: What you should learn from the FrenchSep 06 00:07schestowitzIt’s interesting that CW is with IDG now. Was it always the case?Sep 06 00:08schestowitzI’ve been noticing this recently.Sep 06 00:08schestowitzIDG is IDC related, IIRC, i.e. Microsoft money on the table.Sep 06 00:08ZiggyFishlolSep 06 00:09schestowitzhttp://www.boozallen.com/news/38177659 “McLean, VA – June 18, 2007 – Booz Allen Hamilton announced today that IDG’s Computerworld magazine”Sep 06 00:09schestowitzHmmmm…. weird. I didn’t realise itSep 06 00:10schestowitzhttp://www.ntcompatible.com/IDC_Cost_Analysis_Fund…Sep 06 00:11schestowitz“eWeek’s Peter Galli gets the scoop that the recent IDC paper, which claims that the total cost of ownership (TOC) for Windows beats out Linux servers, was actually sponsored by Microsoft itself. ” Galli seems to have retired or something this yearSep 06 00:12schestowitz“Research firm IDC, in a Microsoft-funded study…” http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.htmlSep 06 00:12schestowitz“IDC is a subsidiary of IDG , the world’s leading technology media, research, and events company. Additional information can be found at www.idc.com.” http://www.idg.com/www/HomeNew.nsf/docs/idcSep 06 00:13ZiggyFishFirefox users report problems after updating ( http://www.computerworld.com/actio… ) – another Microsoft Fuck upSep 06 00:13schestowitzI should really write something about it. IDG is huge, so the bias is clearer to see.Sep 06 00:13ZiggyFishyeahSep 06 00:13schestowitzThis affects ComputerWorld, NetworkWorld, PCWorld, LinuxWorld and many other publicationsSep 06 00:14schestowitzLinuxInsider too was sold to ECT, which now uses it to attack Linux sometimes.Sep 06 00:14ZiggyFishyeahSep 06 00:15schestowitzAnyway, I’ll write about it tomorrow cause I’m tired, so I’ll just post some links.Sep 06 00:16ZiggyFishniceSep 06 00:20kentma has quit (“Leaving.”)Sep 06 00:51PetoKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 01:34PeterKraus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 06 01:35libervisco_ (n=daniel@89-172-56-185.adsl.net.t-com.hr) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 02:31libervisco has quit (Nick collision from services.)Sep 06 02:32libervisco_ is now known as liberviscoSep 06 02:32ZiggyFishheySep 06 04:25seller_liar (n=seller_l@201-27-172-61.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 06:05seller_liarI remember now , dot gnu does not suffer about ms deal because gplv3Sep 06 06:06warren (n=warren@redhat/wombat/warren) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 06:40warrenHi folks, just wanted to say, keep up the good work. =)Sep 06 06:40warrenMy dislike of Novell really began with this: http://wtogami.livejournal.com/11305.htmlSep 06 06:41tessier has quit (Excess Flood)Sep 06 06:58tessier (n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 06:58schestowitzHey, Warren. Thanks.Sep 06 07:02seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 07:25ZiggyFish has quit (“Leaving.”)Sep 06 07:28schestowitzIt seems like Mr. Microsoft Consultant is threatening to harm this IRC channel unless he’s permitted here: http://www.fsdaily.com/Business/Boy…Sep 06 08:14tessierWhat a wankerSep 06 08:37tessierJust ignore himSep 06 08:37schestowitzI di.Sep 06 08:37schestowitzdoSep 06 08:37benJImanNormally bans are removed after a short time, if the person being banned is not a repeat troublemaker.Sep 06 09:18schestowitz removes ban on !@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cjSep 06 09:28trmanco (n=trmanco@bl7-8-218.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 09:32schestowitzMonty is out! “First, it’s a rumour. Technically there is no resignation letter. However, I spoke to Monty yesterday, and yes, resignation is an option he considers,” reads a blog post from Kaj Arnö, MySQL vice president for spin community relations.” http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09…Sep 06 09:34schestowitzIt’s probably good news. Monty was a lobbying /against/ software patents and Sun’s attitude towards GNU/Linux and patents must not have done good. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05…Sep 06 09:35PetoKrausmanSep 06 09:43PetoKraushttp://biosyourlife.com/index.php?opt…Sep 06 09:43PetoKrausthis is RUBBISHSep 06 09:43schestowitzIt’s corny, I know.Sep 06 09:44schestowitzWatch the signature: “MS”Sep 06 09:44PetoKrausyeahSep 06 09:44PetoKrausi meanSep 06 09:44PetoKrausit’s such a horrible article, that if it was written about windows, we’d call the author “paid for”Sep 06 09:45schestowitzMaybe MS is [M]ark [S]huttlworth. Sep 06 09:46kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-49.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 09:49moparx has quit (“leaving”)Sep 06 09:51trmancohey coolSep 06 10:01trmancocola has statsSep 06 10:01captain_magnus (n=mboman@opensuse/member/MBoman) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 10:01PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 10:08benJImanschestowitz: btw “Use the chanserv “op” command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low and reduce conflicts.” [ http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml ]Sep 06 10:13schestowitzbenJIman: if you’re gonna heckle, please take it elsewhere. You’re not here for good reasons and you know it. There are at last 3 OpenSUSE people in the channel right now and you lecture us on “temperature”.Sep 06 10:17benJImanJust pointing out freenode policy.Sep 06 10:17schestowitzHow convenient. “It’s not me, it’s him”Sep 06 10:17PetoKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 10:20captain_magnusschestowitz: “good reasons”?Sep 06 10:37schestowitzcaptain_OpenSUSE_magnus: yes, good reasons. You’re not trying to help. You’re /against/ BN.Sep 06 10:37captain_magnusschestowitz: Glad we got that out of the way schestowitz_Not_openSUSE. Was just curious what good reasons wereSep 06 10:40schestowitzBut don’t worry, I won’t provoke or criticise you guys anymore. It’s Novell that’s the issue. I have a good post about OpenSUSE coming.Sep 06 10:41mib_4t537t (i=c414c14d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ff573551e5dbdf58) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 10:57mib_4t537thellooo everybodySep 06 10:57schestowitzHi there, what’s up?Sep 06 10:58mib_4t537t has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)Sep 06 11:03kentmaschestowitz: I’m going to be doing some system maintenance today – there will be some downtime, sorry.Sep 06 11:32schestowitzThat’s cool.Sep 06 11:36mulletron (n=mulletro@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 11:40trmancoschestowitz, that key you use on the usenet is really yours right?Sep 06 11:46schestowitzYes, if you can validate it. Some people faked that by copying and pasting (and posting under my name).Sep 06 11:52trmancothe one with the key id: 74572E8ESep 06 11:55trmancoI’ll validate it and trust itSep 06 11:55Odd_BlokeUhm, you shouldn’t really trust a key based on an IRC conversation.Sep 06 11:57schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/PGP/Sep 06 11:58trmancowellSep 06 11:58trmancoI can’t go visit him personally and confirm if the key is really his Sep 06 11:59Odd_BlokeThat’s still not enough to trust it.Sep 06 11:59Odd_BlokeThen don’t trust it.Sep 06 11:59kentma has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Sep 06 12:00trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”)Sep 06 12:08trmanco (n=trmanco@bl7-8-218.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 12:11kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-49.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 13:11kentmaschestowitz: should be up again now..?Sep 06 13:12schestowitzWorks perfectly! I suppose you’ve patched up that OpenSSL thingie.Sep 06 13:13kentmaI think so…Sep 06 13:14kentmaseem to be on up to date versions, so should be fine.Sep 06 13:14jose (n=jose@adsl-233-2-23.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 13:15schestowitzI updated a Ubuntu box some days ago (I burned literally HALF a day struggling with that one) and it got a shrwed mechanism for patching it.Sep 06 13:15schestowitzNot only does it get a modified package but it also regenerates the keys.Sep 06 13:15kentmaneat!Sep 06 13:15schestowitzBTW, this problem was due to – guess what — a bad hub!Sep 06 13:15schestowitzTook me ages to find the cause of the issue. Not even rebooting the hub would help and I tried everything!Sep 06 13:16kentmaI’ve just replaced yet another disk here…Sep 06 13:16schestowitzEven rebotted the switch.Sep 06 13:16kentmathis is where ip networks are terrible – there’s almost no proper maintenance information from them.Sep 06 13:16schestowitzI’m going to take back my position as a network engineer to pay my bills, ensuring I can carry on advocating FOSS without running out of money.Sep 06 13:16schestowitzI spoke about this with my dad this morning. I guess it’s a good solution.Sep 06 13:17kentmaprobablyh a good plan – running out of cash is not a great idea Sep 06 13:17josetough compromises.Sep 06 13:17schestowitzYup. I’ve had some savings because I had worked since I was like 14, but that too may run out.Sep 06 13:17joseif only the cash would last longerSep 06 13:17kentmait would be useful it if could be rolled thinner Sep 06 13:18schestowitzjose: how’s the economy over there in Florida?Sep 06 13:18schestowitzI have many relatives there.Sep 06 13:18joseit should worsen by the month.. at least for nowSep 06 13:18josei’m not employed in ITSep 06 13:18josei cannot handle emplyee relationship for that sort of workSep 06 13:19schestowitzjose: good fot you.Sep 06 13:19schestowitzforSep 06 13:19josei did always think i had a rather good fot.Sep 06 13:19schestowitzThe last I’be heard, Shane (of BN) quit this industry. It’s chaos.Sep 06 13:19schestowitzEngineers becoming non-techies.Sep 06 13:19joseThere should be more (greater volume) of interesting work as linux is taken upSep 06 13:20schestowitzjose: yes, that too.Sep 06 13:20joseeverywhere savings are taking a hit as prices rise and wages….Sep 06 13:20schestowitzThankfully I don’t have to mess with Windows in my IT roles.Sep 06 13:21schestowitzjose: in FL too?Sep 06 13:21joseschestowitz: i just wrote this. http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph…Sep 06 13:21josein FL literal wages are stagnant or even dropping deceptively while all prices have gone upSep 06 13:22josenaturally real wages are droppingSep 06 13:22schestowitzMy cousins is in construction; that can’t be good. After hurricane Andrew he had lots of business (rebuilding), but now it’s the opposite.Sep 06 13:22schestowitzWell, that’s a bummer for those with mortgages.Sep 06 13:22joseyeah, construction has taken a hit along with the entire housing sectorSep 06 13:23schestowitzI have a friend who’s stressed out about it. Some people can lose their house.Sep 06 13:23joseif you keep your job, you can continue to pay the mortgage though psychologically you will have to fight uphillSep 06 13:23jose knowing that so much equity has disappeared and that you now have extra debtSep 06 13:24schestowitzFor how long? 20 years ?Sep 06 13:24joselinux will save everything Sep 06 13:24jose3.. 4 yearsSep 06 13:24joselinux is comingSep 06 13:24schestowitzThat guys I’m actually competing against today. Rowing competition. I’m probably going to win the plate this year. Sep 06 13:24josewhat kind of rowingSep 06 13:24joseteam?Sep 06 13:24schestowitzjose: companies will collapse along with their tissue paper moneySep 06 13:25schestowitzThe fear is that deficit will be shown for what it is once companies go bankrupt. Look at SCO… from ‘hero’ to zero in Sept. 2007.Sep 06 13:25joseyeah but ma and pa will have an unfair share of that tissue paper if it does in fact drop like a rockSep 06 13:25schestowitzjose: oars.Sep 06 13:25schestowitzMa and pa might live in a tent by that timeSep 06 13:26schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/results?se…Sep 06 13:26schestowitzThe press doesn’t cover ‘tent cities’. It shows ‘American dream’ though, you know, to keep people hopeful and motivates. That’s Hollywood brainwash for you.Sep 06 13:29schestowitzmotivatedSep 06 13:29josewallstreet greedSep 06 13:29josethere should be laws where people’s fundamental needs take precendence over business. This way the business community is forced to find solutions or be more carefulSep 06 13:30josehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbns4…Sep 06 13:31schestowitzIt’s shocking I know. Let me watch this.Sep 06 13:32josei’ll be back a little laterSep 06 13:40schestowitzI’ll be around.Sep 06 13:40macabe (i=43f0d869@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-aea71fd2d2d55cda) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 14:24kentma has quit (“Leaving.”)Sep 06 14:33kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-49.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 14:36schestowitzThe Microsoft money in IDG/IDC goes a long way back on the face of it: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.html http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/St…Sep 06 14:41joseschestowitz, did you change the url to this page http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/… ?Sep 06 14:54schestowitzI haven’t, why?Sep 06 14:58schestowitzOh f!!!Sep 06 14:58schestowitzIt’s that annoying bug that turns posts “Private”Sep 06 14:59schestowitzHow long has this gone on for, I wonder..Sep 06 14:59josejust checked right now. i posted something there yesterday.Sep 06 15:02schestowitzI fixed it a moment ago.Sep 06 15:02schestowitzIt must have lasted for a few hours, which is shame because Carla selected it for front page of Linux Today.Sep 06 15:02trmancoschestowitz, what version of what are you using on BN?Sep 06 15:04trmancoIt looks like WordPress to me but I’m not quite sureSep 06 15:05kentmaschestowitz: sorry another outage — hard drive problems Sep 06 15:07schestowitz2.0.xSep 06 15:07schestowitzIt’s LTS, kentma, because it’s on Debian repos.Sep 06 15:07trmancohmmSep 06 15:07trmancoa little old Sep 06 15:07kentmaLTS?Sep 06 15:07schestowitzNo, it’s being patched.Sep 06 15:07schestowitzUntil 2010, IIRC.Sep 06 15:07schestowitzI have 2.6 on my other blogs.Sep 06 15:07trmancookSep 06 15:08schestowitzWith BN, I have some plugins that I don’t want to risk losing.Sep 06 15:08schestowitzhttp://wordpress.org/download/legacy/Sep 06 15:09schestowitz“In keeping with the stable/testing release philosophy of Debian we have committed to maintaining our 2.0 branch with security and critical fixes until 2010. (Yes that’s 5 years after it was originally released in 2005.)”Sep 06 15:09kentma has quit (“Leaving.”)Sep 06 15:10trmancocoolSep 06 15:11trmancoI didn’t know thatSep 06 15:11kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-49.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 15:12kentma has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 15:14kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-49.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 15:15kentma has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 15:21Odd_BlokeI agree with most of http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/… but Microsoft aren’t doing anything to not “permit the Kenyan people to have freedom with Free(dom) software”.Sep 06 15:23Odd_Blokes/anything/anything reported within that article and directly related to cyber cafes/Sep 06 15:23joseI imagine bn has covered OLPC and Kenya, right? There is also the implied effects of dumping. While $3 is dumping when you consider it’s regular price elsewhere, I think the $0 piracy is also dumping.. freebies being given to defund competitors.. think netscape and free ie and the loss they took in court as a result.Sep 06 15:39schestowitzYes, and cost of a copy is $0 anyway.Sep 06 15:41joseIt’s the behinds the scenes dirt that we all want.. but that is hard to get.. assuming it exists.Sep 06 15:41schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/03/…Sep 06 15:42schestowitz off for a whileSep 06 15:50josebn works to help put the puzzle pieces together but you don’t always get the hand pulling trigger piece for each and every event.Sep 06 15:53jose.. at least not right away.Sep 06 15:54kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-49.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 16:17seller_liar (n=seller_l@201-95-49-244.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 16:22seller_liarschestowitz: hello roySep 06 16:23seller_liarschestowitz: cj have a problem with youSep 06 16:23warrenbtw, what motivates you to boycott novell?Sep 06 16:30seller_liarwhat?Sep 06 16:31trmancohttp://www.techwatch.co.uk/2008/09/0…Sep 06 16:32trmancoseller_liar, Roy is awaySep 06 16:32seller_liartrmanco: sim ,eu viSep 06 16:32trmanco»»»» * schestowitz off for a whileSep 06 16:32warren (n=warren@redhat/wombat/warren) has left #boycottnovell (“Leaving”)Sep 06 16:36macabe has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)Sep 06 16:38macabe (i=43f0d869@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-23f7cdf476c548b9) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 16:39mib_oxp40t has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)Sep 06 16:42seller_liartrmanco: I remember now, dot gnu does not suffer of patent problems like novellsoft beucause it’s gplv3Sep 06 16:42seller_liartrmanco: documentaries have more power over text, if roy can do a documentary about m$ ,this is can be goodSep 06 16:47seller_liartrmanco: look super size me for exampleSep 06 16:47trmancoA documentarySep 06 16:48seller_liartrmanco: yesSep 06 16:49trmancowe can contact Michael Moore, I’m sure the message will get to the vast majority Sep 06 16:49seller_liartrmanco: hehe…Sep 06 16:49seller_liartrmanco: but one image means 100 wordsSep 06 16:50seller_liartrmanco: it’s hard , i know,but the efficiency is the bestSep 06 16:50seller_liartrmanco: easy language, passive information are the best of televisionSep 06 16:51seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 17:01joseLatest comment titled “Novell the liability” http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3…Sep 06 17:46joseroy has put together a lot of information. many producers could leverage it. including amateurs in bunches on youtube. Sep 06 17:47trmancoSep 06 17:48kentmaschestowitz: further server probs – sorry.Sep 06 17:51joselaterSep 06 18:21jose has quit (“Leaving”)Sep 06 18:22schestowitzI won! (5:23 for one mile rowing)Sep 06 19:08Goldenear (n=nicolas@vol75-4-82-225-33-186.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 19:16GoldenearHi thereSep 06 19:18GoldenearI would like to chat about the fear around monoSep 06 19:19GoldenearI would try to understandSep 06 19:19schestowitzSure.Sep 06 19:20Goldenearmost popular linux distros now include mono by defaultSep 06 19:20anivar (n=anivar@117.192.98.82) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 19:20Goldenearbut many people on the web are against thatSep 06 19:21GoldenearI’m trying to understand what’s wrong with monoSep 06 19:21schestowitzGoldenear: some include it by default “because others do”Sep 06 19:21tessierIt’s a trap. Sep 06 19:21Goldenearbut what’s wrong in doing soSep 06 19:22schestowitzFedora for example thought it was ‘safe’ (it knew it was controversial and denied it before). Then it said “everyone does it”Sep 06 19:22tessierMicrosoft is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patents and these people think it’s a good idea use mono.Sep 06 19:22schestowitzThe same is often said about codecs, but the difference is the /holder/ of the patents,.Sep 06 19:22schestowitzI May 2007 Microsoft openly threatened to sue Linux vendors/users.Sep 06 19:22tessierGoldenear: There are tons of good and similar technologies out there. Why adopt the riskiest one?Sep 06 19:22tessierAnd you can never tell which of the mono advocates Microsoft is behind.Sep 06 19:23schestowitzGoldenear: it’s not just patents though. There are other more serious issues.Sep 06 19:23anivar has quit (Client Quit)Sep 06 19:23tessierSo it’s hard to tell who is really being deceptive and who really thinks mono is a good technology.Sep 06 19:23schestowitzFor one thing, Microsoft wants .NET spread throughout the Web for greater control.Sep 06 19:23tessierAnd if .NET spreads we can only use IE to view the web. And no IE for Linux.Sep 06 19:23Goldenearbut arent’t the patents issue only about the winforms asp and other specific Microsoft stuffs ?Sep 06 19:23schestowitzThere’s a great deal of pseudo support of Mono/.NET but that’s another matter.Sep 06 19:24tessierGoldenear: They won’t say what the patent issue is. It may even be with Mono.Sep 06 19:24schestowitzMicrosoft for example was caught gaming polls to give the illusion that .NET is better.Sep 06 19:24tessierGiven that mono is a clone of a Microsoft technology it seems likely.Sep 06 19:24schestowitzDo search on .NET in Google Patents.Sep 06 19:25schestowitzI did that last week.Sep 06 19:25GoldenearC# is not patented ?Sep 06 19:25schestowitzThe excuse made is that it’s standardisedSep 06 19:26tessierMany of the techniques and technologies in C# are patented, yes.Sep 06 19:26moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 19:26schestowitzHowever, standards and patents are not mutually exclusive.Sep 06 19:26schestowitztessier: based on what I hear from people, the issue of control (technical) is greater than patents (legal)Sep 06 19:26schestowitzJust watch Silverlight/Moonlight.Sep 06 19:26schestowitzhere you have an example of the illusion of parity.Sep 06 19:27tessierThat’s probably true. But if control fails they will definitely resort to patents.Sep 06 19:27schestowitzCould Moonlight users get access to the Olympic? No? Why not? because Microsoft owns the APISep 06 19:27schestowitzHad it been Ajax+Ogg, none of this would happen.Sep 06 19:27schestowitzFF 3.1 will have Ogg built in and Chrome pushes JS and Ajax further. FF3.1 also matches Chrime performance and surpasses it.Sep 06 19:28schestowitztessier: that’s what Rambus did.Sep 06 19:28schestowitzCompanies relinquish control of their so-called INNOVA~1 only as long as they are fat, happy and profitable.Sep 06 19:28Goldenearis there any evidence that Microsoft could have something againt GTK# (from a patent point of view) ?Sep 06 19:28tessierGoldenear: They will never tell us exactly what patents are being infringed by what.Sep 06 19:29schestowitzMicrosoft has lost around 100 billiob dollar in value this year, so don’t expect it to be gantle.Sep 06 19:29GoldenearI mean more against GTK# than about GTK+Sep 06 19:29schestowitzgentleSep 06 19:29GoldenearI don’t expect that from themSep 06 19:29schestowitzThere are also submarine patents.Sep 06 19:29tessierGoldenear: You don’t expect what from the?Sep 06 19:29tessierthSep 06 19:29tessierthemSep 06 19:30schestowitzWatch them patenting PgUp/PgDn in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Sep 06 19:30Goldenearbut I don’t wont to become paranoid neitherSep 06 19:30tessier needs to find out why his keyboard drops keysSep 06 19:30schestowitzWhat ought to be proposed is this.Sep 06 19:31schestowitzUntil the folks at Novell openly explain how they got exclusive ‘protection’ for Mono and what individual patents are involve, say no to Novell’s Mono (yes, Novell owns the framework)Sep 06 19:31Goldenearanyway software patents is a poison for FOSSSep 06 19:32schestowitzGranted, they cannot be granted except for in very few countries, let alone be honoured.Sep 06 19:33schestowitzMicrosoft bypasses the law, e.g. in India, South Africa, which means that it breaks the law by filing for software patents there. Also, it cashes in on imaginary software patents (Dell for example, plus back room deal). Microsoft is like Sisvel.Sep 06 19:35GoldenearI’m living in Europe so I’ve not (yet) problem with software patentsSep 06 19:36Goldenearbut eg in the US it’s a real nightmareSep 06 19:37schestowitzDon’t worry, it’s imploding there too, but don’t be part of this implosion.Sep 06 19:37GoldenearI’m pretty sure that microsoft is right where it is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patentsSep 06 19:38Goldenearthere are patents for almost anythingSep 06 19:38Goldenearthat’s so crazySep 06 19:38schestowitzDo you know how many IBM patents (i.e. OIN too) Microsoft infringes on?Sep 06 19:39Goldenearand vice versaSep 06 19:39schestowitzYes, which renders this whole system moot.Sep 06 19:40Goldenearbut you are protected againt other big companies when you are a big company Sep 06 19:40schestowitzIt’s more complicatedSep 06 19:40schestowitzMicrosoft would not attack Linux directly /because/ of this,Sep 06 19:40Goldenearthe system is only there to kill small businessesSep 06 19:40schestowitzIt can pass on a little patent to Nathan Myhrvold or other former scum and have the patent troll attack Linux.Sep 06 19:40schestowitzThey may have already done this with Acacia (against Novell and Red Hat)Sep 06 19:41Goldenearexcept the patents issue, is there anything else against mono ?Sep 06 19:42schestowitzYes, API control.Sep 06 19:43schestowitzThat’s the issue which I consider more serious.Sep 06 19:43schestowitzI’d need an analogy here.Sep 06 19:43GoldenearAPI control by Microsoft ?Sep 06 19:44schestowitzOOXML is one.Sep 06 19:44Goldenearthe difference is that OOXML already had a free/open equivalentSep 06 19:45schestowitzMicrosoft can and will (and already has) extend OOXML and have everyone at Microsoft’s mercy not just because it’s impossible to implement but also because of legal grounds. And let’s not get into the OOXML corruptions even…Sep 06 19:45libervisco has quit (“Ideas are bullet proof.”)Sep 06 19:45schestowitzGoldenear: like java?Sep 06 19:45Goldenearisn’t the java api controlled by sun ?Sep 06 19:45schestowitzGoldenear: does Java want to “f kill” the “cancer” called F OSS?Sep 06 19:46Goldenear?Sep 06 19:46schestowitzMicrosoft’s one side of the mouth says use Mono (yes, its people say so) and the other says that it’s only for Novell and that it can and might sue over patents.Sep 06 19:47Goldenearso, why not fork mono and make a clean one, only with GTK# ?Sep 06 19:48schestowitzDefine ‘clean’ for a clone.Sep 06 19:49schestowitzIt’s like saying “let’s make a clean version of OOXML”Sep 06 19:49GoldenearOOXML is not clean from it’s basis… it’s really MS office dependent (and at least the first version of OOXML included some dark binary blobs)Sep 06 19:50Goldenearc# is now an ecma standard… so it can be freely implementedSep 06 19:51schestowitzFree as in…?Sep 06 19:51Goldeneargtk# is just gtk for c#Sep 06 19:51Goldenearfree as a free peopleSep 06 19:52benJImanI think not providing mono would be a much bigger hinderance to free software. Developers are more likely to write and contribute to free software in their spare time if they can do so with a language and platform they know. Not allowing .net developers to contribute is losing a massive potential contributor base.Sep 06 19:52schestowitzShould Linux also adopt DirectX and ActiveX?Sep 06 19:52benJImanThe kernel?Sep 06 19:53schestowitzYou know what I meanSep 06 19:53benJImanIf someone wants to work on implementing them then sure.Sep 06 19:53Goldenearwine can run many directx appsSep 06 19:53benJImanIndeed.Sep 06 19:53schestowitzYes, BUT.Sep 06 19:54schestowitzPeople do not develop on Linux /FOR/ Wine.Sep 06 19:54benJImanSome people do.Sep 06 19:54benJImane.g. picassa for winelib iirc.Sep 06 19:54schestowitzIt’s one thing to bring .NET application to run them on Linux and another to use Monodevelop to write them from scratch the Microsoft way.Sep 06 19:54Goldenearbut that a very special case imhoSep 06 19:54schestowitzHow so?Sep 06 19:54benJImanschestowitz: Even if those developers would otherwise not contribute to free software at all?Sep 06 19:55schestowitzYou give them convenience with bad habits, so they won’t change them.Sep 06 19:56benJImanschestowitz: If .net is used for 20-30% of business software development (numbers out of the air, but not an unreasonable guess I think) then that’s an awful lot of people who could be contributing.Sep 06 19:56schestowitzCompromise.Sep 06 19:56schestowitzhttp://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.htmlSep 06 19:56benJImanIf the implementation were non-free I might agree with you.Sep 06 19:56schestowitzThey empower an enemy of fredom.Sep 06 19:57benJImanFree software is free to empower anyone.Sep 06 19:58GoldenearIf it’s done cleverly mono could empower freedom with a Microsoft based technology…Sep 06 19:58Goldenearthe trick is just to be vigilentSep 06 19:58schestowitzFor the record, Goldenear, benJIman is here to defend Novell.Sep 06 20:00Goldenearwhy couldn’t gtk# be a weapon against MSSep 06 20:00benJImanFor the record, I am not here to defend Novell.Sep 06 20:00schestowitzBecause as soon as gtk# becomes a threat to Microsoft, it has power to harm it.Sep 06 20:00schestowitznot the same with gtk+Sep 06 20:00Goldenearwhat’s the difference ?Sep 06 20:01benJImanI disagree with the personification of Microsoft as an evil entity. I have no problem disagreeing with some of their corporate actions, they do some things that are helpful for free software too.Sep 06 20:01schestowitzbenJIman: LOL Yeah, not at all…Sep 06 20:01schestowitzbenJIman: You’re here to ‘add balance’Sep 06 20:01benJImanschestowitz: As I mentioned yesterday I disagree with Novell’s actions on many things, including parts of the microsoft covenant.Sep 06 20:01schestowitzGoldenear: Microsoft controls the API and get hooked on C#Sep 06 20:01Goldenearbut now C# is ecma, MS is not alone to be allowed to control it, isn’t it ?Sep 06 20:02schestowitzDo you know what ECMA is?Sep 06 20:03Goldenearyes I do… what do you mean ?Sep 06 20:04schestowitzIt’s corrupt. it’s a front for companies.Sep 06 20:06Goldenearand what about ISO ?Sep 06 20:09captain_magnus (n=mboman@opensuse/member/MBoman) has left #boycottnovellSep 06 20:10schestowitzSame now that it was captured by a vendor, but not quite as bad.Sep 06 20:11mib_maaaij (i=52a52933@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7f740edd27b0f8cd) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 20:12schestowitzECMA is partly responsible for what happened to ISO.Sep 06 20:12mib_maaaij has quit (Client Quit)Sep 06 20:12mib_mgokv1 (i=52a52933@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-94a878aec7b1929b) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 20:12Goldenearif java is a real challenger for mono, why is it not used for making Linux/gnome apps ?Sep 06 20:15benJImanIt is.Sep 06 20:15Goldeneardo you have example of a java/gnome application ?Sep 06 20:16benJImanGoogle java-gnome there are some.Sep 06 20:16GoldenearI can’t find anySep 06 20:16schestowitzRSSOwl.Sep 06 20:17benJImanNot as many because it until recently mono was freer than java, and also mono has had more desktop sponsorship from novell.Sep 06 20:17schestowitzIt uses Eclipse though.Sep 06 20:17Goldenearis java really freer than mono now ?Sep 06 20:20tessierOO.org uses JavaSep 06 20:21Goldenearbut it’s not a java appSep 06 20:22Goldenearit only extents some of its functions in javaSep 06 20:22tessierIt comes with java appsSep 06 20:22benJImanThere are a few java-swt applications. e.g. eclipse, azureus. Fewer using java-gnome though.Sep 06 20:23benJImanNot many qtjambi apps yet either, quite a new technology.Sep 06 20:24GoldenearbenJIman: could you give me the name of one java-gnome application ?Sep 06 20:26libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 20:28schestowitzDefault?Sep 06 20:28schestowitzhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8111Sep 06 20:30benJImanGoldenear: I don’t use GNOME, don’t really follow such things.Sep 06 20:30benJImanHave you looked at their website?Sep 06 20:30GoldenearyepSep 06 20:30Goldenearwhat do you use benJIman ?Sep 06 20:32GoldenearKDE ?Sep 06 20:32benJImanYes.Sep 06 20:32GoldenearI did tooSep 06 20:32PetoKrausi can say i never used kde or gnomeSep 06 20:33Goldenearbut I sadly had to admit that gnome seems to have won the Linux desktop as a standard… because of gtk LGPLSep 06 20:33benJImanWell I might be tempted to use GNOME as I’d be more likely to contribute to it with mono than KDE with c++.Sep 06 20:34benJImanBut there are some deal breakers.Sep 06 20:34benJImanLike the dialogue buttons being the wrong way round.Sep 06 20:34Goldenearwhat do you mean ?Sep 06 20:34benJImanIn GNOME the “lose my work” button is where most of the computing world has the “save” button.Sep 06 20:35benJImanOn every dialogue.Sep 06 20:35PetoKrausthere’s no consistency whatsoever even under gnome appsSep 06 20:35GoldenearI din’t notice thatSep 06 20:35GoldenearPetoKraus: no consistency ?Sep 06 20:36PetoKrausin the placement of “save / don’t save / cancel” buttonsSep 06 20:36schestowitzThere are icons.Sep 06 20:37schestowitzCan’t miss the nice green ones. Same in KDE.Sep 06 20:37libervisco has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 20:38PetoKrausone would have to get used to the fact, that “linux desktop” will be inconsistentSep 06 20:39schestowitzInconsistency is prevalent in other systems too. Even OS/X. They have third parties.Sep 06 20:40PetoKrausno, it’s prevalent in windowsSep 06 20:41schestowitzGuidelines are best obeyed and /controlled/ by the vendor controlling the platform and selling it.Sep 06 20:41PetoKrausthough one thing is really missing from “linux desktop”Sep 06 20:42PetoKrausclipboard working between qt and gtk apps, and terminal window, and, say, mozilla developed apps.Sep 06 20:42Goldenearbutton placement in gnome is the same than in OS XSep 06 20:43schestowitzOS X is golden standard?Sep 06 20:43mib_glvpek (i=62e9a5d7@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-71b9cff9af06000e) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 20:44Goldenearnop, neither windows Sep 06 20:44benJImanPutting the buttons in a different order to that 95% of users are trained to using is silly.Sep 06 20:44benJImanNot to mention that humans read English left to right.Sep 06 20:44mib_glvpek has quit (Client Quit)Sep 06 20:45GoldenearI don’t see anything wrong with the buttun placement in gnome, and I reade left to right….Sep 06 20:47Goldenearbut it’s just a question of tastes I guess Sep 06 20:47schestowitzLike drivingSep 06 20:49GoldenearlolSep 06 20:50Goldenearexactly Sep 06 20:50schestowitzNo right or wrong, unless it’s defined by consistency, which changes across lands (or platforms)Sep 06 20:52benJImanWell KDE will change button order depending on what style you choose. GNOME doesn’t provide a facility to do this.Sep 06 20:54benJImanIf using GNOME style or KDE apps in GNOME they will use the GNOME button order.Sep 06 20:54benJImanGNOME apps just wrong in kde.Sep 06 20:54MinceRimo the button order the GNOME HIG prescribes is dumb.Sep 06 20:55Goldenearthen so it is in os XSep 06 20:56mib_mgokv1 has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)Sep 06 21:11mib_mgokv1 (i=52a52933@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fef459d508f28fbf) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 21:12mib_mgokv1 has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”)Sep 06 21:25MinceRosx being retarded is not news :>Sep 06 21:32libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 21:37MinceRconfirmed, the osx button order is the same retarded one.Sep 06 21:41dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 21:43schestowitzScreenie?Sep 06 21:47MinceRhttp://developer.apple.com/documen…Sep 06 21:48schestowitzIt looks right to me.Sep 06 21:49MinceRi find it annoying.Sep 06 21:51schestowitzCastle uv’ Jobs prescribes pixel separation between buttons. Or else!Sep 06 21:51MinceRi could care less about pixel separation (except that it shouldn’t really be measured in pixels…)Sep 06 21:52MinceRputting cancel to the left of ok is what annoys meSep 06 21:53schestowitzIt seems natural to me based on habit (I haven’t used anything but KDE and GNOME for many years).Sep 06 21:56neighborlee (i=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 21:57Henso (n=pj@ti0053a380-0124.bb.online.no) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 21:57MinceRperhaps the retards at crapple haven’t realized yet that most writing systems go from left to rightSep 06 21:58MinceRand that people normally want to execute the action they initiateSep 06 21:59schestowitzI dunno. How’s cancel/allow sorted?Sep 06 22:00MinceRi haven’t seen that dialogSep 06 22:00schestowitzMouse practice: http://www.egg-attack.com/ (context: http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/… )Sep 06 22:00MinceRi’ve only ever used vista onceSep 06 22:00MinceReven that one time it failed horribly at unmounting an usb storage deviceSep 06 22:01MinceRwe had to shut the damn thing downSep 06 22:01libervisco has quit (“Ideas are bullet proof.”)Sep 06 22:01libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 22:04neighborleemy friend has vista, and only now with 4 gigs of ram does he find it liveable….I tried it and man was it a monstrositySep 06 22:08schestowitzDRM sucks…. CPU and RAM.Sep 06 22:09schestowitzBut the issues go beyond a DRM-riddles codebase, which they can’t remove now.Sep 06 22:10schestowitzriddledSep 06 22:10libervisco has quit (“Ideas are bullet proof.”)Sep 06 22:15libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 22:15kentmaschestowitz: I think all is well again at the server sideSep 06 22:29schestowitzkentma: I’ll post soon. Just been disracted lately.Sep 06 22:30kentmaschestowitz: good, really – I’ve had a few problems Sep 06 22:30schestowitzWhat do you mean?Sep 06 22:31kentmafailing disks – I’ve been zeroing blocks to force the disks to re-assign – and this is in a raid array… irritatingSep 06 22:31schestowitzThankfully I haven’t had any issues accessing old posts. It must be ruining your weekend.Sep 06 22:38Goldenearschestowitz: I found that about you : http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2008/08/i…Sep 06 22:45Henso has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 06 22:49seller_liar (n=seller_l@201-13-196-195.dial-up.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 06 22:49schestowitzI beg to differ.Sep 06 22:51GoldenearlolSep 06 22:52Goldenearwhat I understand now is that fear about mono is due to hate against MS… mono as based on a MS technology is seen as a devil stuffSep 06 22:53GoldenearIf mono really wants to clone .NET, then it’s a bad ideaSep 06 22:53Goldenearif mono mostly focus on GTK# and other things not directly MS related it could be fineSep 06 22:54Goldenearalso let see what Vala will doSep 06 22:54Goldenearit may change somethings about linux distros installing mono by defaultSep 06 22:56schestowitzCan you elaborate on ” hate against MS”?Sep 06 22:56schestowitz[H]omer spoke about this label the other day (“hate”). This is about risk, not hate. Microsoft is the only company (other than SCO) that threatens GNU/Linux.Sep 06 22:57trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”)Sep 06 23:02GoldenearHate against their commercial politicsSep 06 23:03GoldenearHate againt the state of mind of MS CEOSep 06 23:03schestowitzThat da!!Sep 06 23:03Goldenear(I share all of this)Sep 06 23:04schestowitzOops. Ignore me.Sep 06 23:04schestowitzJust seen something scary.Sep 06 23:04Goldenearwhat ? MS CEO ?Sep 06 23:04GoldenearlolSep 06 23:04schestowitzNo, I can’t understand something.Sep 06 23:05schestowitzI’ve just watched AWStats.Sep 06 23:05schestowitzI says 28,000+ pageviews (excluding search engines) 0AM-7PM, but I can’t figure out where it comes from.Sep 06 23:06Goldenear has quit (“Ex-Chat”)Sep 06 23:10benJImanHow many requests do you have in an average day, including feed requests?Sep 06 23:10schestowitzI don’t know. It depends on how it’s counted.Sep 06 23:12benJImanNumber of files requested.Sep 06 23:12schestowitzBut anyway, it seems like people just read more. I can’t figure out what caused it.Sep 06 23:12schestowitzAbout 50,000 I think. Let me check.Sep 06 23:13schestowitz66,000 on averageSep 06 23:13benJImanOver 1/3 of planetsuse, impressive.Sep 06 23:13benJImanThat must use a fair amount of bandwidth considering you use images quite a bit.Sep 06 23:14schestowitzThe hosting account might need changed in a month or two because it grows. Shane is hardly on the Internet, sadly.Sep 06 23:15schestowitzThe luv is here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/stats/index.htmlSep 06 23:16benJImanWhat do you mean?Sep 06 23:16schestowitzAbout Shane or Susan’s site?Sep 06 23:17benJImanWhy was susan’s relevant?Sep 06 23:17schestowitzIt declined this summer, but she’s hugely popular and also one of my favourite news sources.Sep 06 23:18benJImanI suspect susan doesn’t read the planets either, she misses out on lots of things on the planets – like you do.Sep 06 23:19schestowitzYes, probably.Sep 06 23:19benJImanShe ususally posts a lot of blogs from random people with a few lines of content and misses the interesting developer blogs with actual content.Sep 06 23:21schestowitzWell, she /does/ covers a lot of OpenSUSE, which she likes.Sep 06 23:21benJImanNot really.Sep 06 23:21benJImanIt’s usually “I installed openSUSE. [end of blog]“Sep 06 23:22benJImanShe really doesn’t link anything from planetsuse unless it’s linked on opensuse news.Sep 06 23:22schestowitzThat too. It still goes deeper than LXer, LinuxToday and other aggregators.Sep 06 23:23benJImanBest off subscribing to planet{kde,gnome,fedora,ubuntu,debian,suse} etc if you want interesting content.Sep 06 23:24benJImanHardly any of it hits any of the aggregators.Sep 06 23:25benJImanThe mono planet is called monologue btw.Sep 06 23:25schestowitzMono. Mono!! Mono!!! No, thanks. Sep 06 23:26benJImanhttp://www.go-mono.com/monologue/ It’s quite interesting quite often.Sep 06 23:26benJImanAlthough most of them seem to develop on vista.Sep 06 23:26schestowitzYes, because Novell isn’t a believer in the Linux desktop,remember?Sep 06 23:27benJImanThere are a lot of people there not employed by Novell, probably the majority.Sep 06 23:28benJImanThe posts from the IKVM (java on .net) person are particularly interesting.Sep 06 23:28schestowitzThis is big: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2…Sep 06 23:29schestowitzContext: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/20/ca…/a>Sep 06 23:33*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 06 23:53
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