r/Blind's Meetings with Reddit and the Current Situation Regarding Accessibility and API Changes

=> https://www.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/14ds81l/rblinds_meetings_with_reddit_and_the_current/

created by AutoModerator on 19/06/2023 at 22:03 UTC

2493 upvotes, 54 top-level comments (showing 25)

Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.

• Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
• Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
• Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
• During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
• Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
• Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside  the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
• Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.

In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled  users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.

Comments

=> Comment by rumster at 20/06/2023 at 02:27 UTC

1 upvotes, 1 direct replies

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=> Comment by suitcaseismyhome at 19/06/2023 at 22:24 UTC

55 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Thank you for all of your time and energy into putting this together and the ongoing discussions.

Unfortunately this very detailed follow please be more concerned and more doubtful that things will be resolved in the future for us.

To say that it is disappointing does not express how deeply concerning this is that such a major website would be so ill prepared and so unwilling to share information or solutions.

=> Comment by [deleted] at 20/06/2023 at 01:46 UTC

41 upvotes, 3 direct replies

They lying. IOS has text to speech built in. The official Reddit app viciously breaks it. And it’s the only app I have that does so. Just straight doesn’t work on Reddit app because of something the Reddit app does to break it.

Apple also is in the wrong. Because apple can say any app that doesn’t allow the built in text to speech will be pulled from the App Store.

=> Comment by Individual-Fan1639 at 19/06/2023 at 23:56 UTC*

32 upvotes, 4 direct replies

ghost fly faulty bow marvelous fearless glorious ugly outgoing reply

• This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact[1]*

=> 1: https://redact.dev

=> Comment by [deleted] at 20/06/2023 at 00:27 UTC

20 upvotes, 0 direct replies

I am gonna share this news with some people on another site that I use besides reddit. Nobody seems to realize the api changes are also a human rights issue.

=> Comment by VixenMiah at 20/06/2023 at 03:44 UTC

19 upvotes, 1 direct replies

So Reddit is so utterly unaware of accessibilty needs that they didn't see this coming and didn't think it was a thing they needed to plan for.

And furthermore, they are so completely unconcerned with accessibilty that not one person on their accessibility team has any certification in that field.

But Reddit assure us that accessibility is their absolute highest priority.

Have I got that all right?

=> Comment by [deleted] at 19/06/2023 at 23:15 UTC

18 upvotes, 0 direct replies

In short, sit down and shut up. Reddit doesn't give a damn about us.

=> Comment by akrazyho at 19/06/2023 at 23:42 UTC

18 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Well, somehow, this is exactly what I expected from them, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t spend a single penny on accessibility for us. Depending on the auditor, the site might seem more than perfectly accessible since we can look at post and comment and that’s all we really need, right?!

=> Comment by DreamyTomato at 20/06/2023 at 07:58 UTC

13 upvotes, 2 direct replies

I'm here from r/deaf. Supporting you 100%.

Have posted on r/deaf asking if their mods had the opportunity to attend this meeting too - both to support you, and also - only if it's OK with you - to add issues around subtitling of Reddit's videos to the wider list of access issues.

=> Comment by QuillnSofa at 20/06/2023 at 02:16 UTC

14 upvotes, 3 direct replies

Could any of this (As this site is US based) result in an ADA complaint of some kind?

=> Comment by blind_devotion08 at 20/06/2023 at 12:33 UTC

11 upvotes, 2 direct replies

This seems like reddit just tried to save face by giving lip service to the valid accessibility issues they didn't have enough forethought to anticipate, but then doesn't want to own up to it when asked to follow through.

Its pretty clear mentioning "Accessibility-focused apps" was a PR band-aid, not a serious commitment. And the fact that they don't have anyone professionally focused on Accessibility is telling, even if it isn't surprising considering the culture of most of professional America toward us. If they were serious about it they would have had stuff ready to discuss instead of narrowing the topic on you guys an hour before.

Make no mistake, this was damage control, not an actual dialog. This was painting happy faces on the broken handicap bathroom stalls. You don't get to claim you value Accessibility and then refuse to discuss it in any meaningful way, Reddit! I may be bodysuit impaired but even i can see your platitudes are empty promises.

Imagine someone saying they value wheelchair access, but then refusing to discuss ramps, refusing to define what wheelchairs are, how steep a ramp should be, or to commit to when they would build one to get people over the barbed wire they just put in front of the front door.

Color me shocked that sighted folks think we should give them a pass because they can't see well with their heads buried that deep in the sand.

=> Comment by Wuffies at 20/06/2023 at 05:27 UTC*

10 upvotes, 0 direct replies

This honestly reads like any sort of response I'd expect from a company hiring their first disabled employee and not knowing how to make concessions to make their job easier (or even possible) without costing more cash than they want to actually spend. Even with the software available to them, if it isn't without some.manner of control of the business, it's deemed as a risk until it is either proven to not be or is required to meet specific business limitations while still offering even modestly basic needs (this may translate into barebones software utility).

The deflection is what I would expect from corporate and people under NDA or not having the answer (big surprise /s). This is really not surprising to read.

=> Comment by k4rp_nl at 20/06/2023 at 10:28 UTC

9 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Good job by you all!

Sounds like they were unable to give any concrete answers, nothing solid, no commitments. Sadly, expected.

A /r/blind that excludes blind moderators is a nice (not) piece of ableism right there. And excluding mods will leads to communities that do not properly represent everybody. Which will be reflected in a shallow and exclusive platform.

The platform has been built without accessibility in mind. I remember doing a quick review of the redesign and it was horrible. The number of issues is abundant. The code showed absolutely no intent of doing things right.

The whole idea of "accessibility-focused apps" is ableist and exlusive. Such a horrible user-hostile platform. It's antisocial media right now.

=> Comment by Kwahn at 20/06/2023 at 18:00 UTC

11 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Reddit hates blind people. Simple as.

Ubermensch techbros simply do not think about nor care about the ability for those with impairments to use the service, as is typical for the type of spez who would fantasize about owning slaves during an apocalypse.

As a techbro that tries to be a little more conscientious, it's just an endless uphill battle. :(

=> Comment by JMMSpartan91 at 20/06/2023 at 15:50 UTC

10 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Was the video call recorded?

Because all those answers sound like lovely evidence for lawsuit.

=> Comment by GrumpyFinn at 20/06/2023 at 17:10 UTC

11 upvotes, 0 direct replies

As a blind mod, this all sounds kinda infuriating

=> Comment by admalledd at 20/06/2023 at 02:35 UTC

16 upvotes, 1 direct replies

Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility.

This line really really concerns me as a software developer on a team that has to meet accessibility compliance guidelines. I myself am not certified or fully qualified, but always at least one person on-team is. We also as a company try to have multiple people certified (exact certs and qualifications vary by business unit and targeted needs) and this stuff isn't crazy hard to do if you keep it in mind from the outset. Sure it may not be easy/free, but if the org I am in of ~20 developers can keep up accessibility ratings and audits better than our competition and clearly better than reddit's own app, what on earth are they even thinking they can do?

I freely admit my own software isn't perfect, and our clients (especially our less-accessible clients' users!) surely get far more clarity on our audits, reports, and processes than this!

=> Comment by [deleted] at 20/06/2023 at 01:48 UTC

16 upvotes, 0 direct replies

I’m also not willing to give Reddit any pass for it not knowing what it doesn’t know. They need to have blind and low vision persons not only on staff but in leadership roles and it’s clear that they aren’t interested.

=> Comment by Melodic-Owl-7426 at 20/06/2023 at 12:10 UTC

7 upvotes, 0 direct replies

Am i an idiot- or should it be that out of all of the websites and apps available that reddit should be easiest to be accessible to all. It pretty much relies on the written word through its comments etc. ? makes no sense for them to be having so much trouble with this also considering their 2000 employees and hundreds of millions of dollars. If one of the biggest websites on the internet cant sort this - the social media that most relies on text. Then who can?

=> Comment by thal3s at 20/06/2023 at 17:54 UTC

8 upvotes, 2 direct replies

Reddit as a corporation may not value you guys but the community does.

Many of us are working diligently to build out the fediverse in an accessible way so you have a home once you decide to leave this dumpster fire.

The Mlem application (a Lemmy iOS client) team has retained an actual certified accessibility expert and has achieved a11y compliance as of now.

=> Comment by Silly_Wizzy at 20/06/2023 at 18:02 UTC*

7 upvotes, 1 direct replies

I’m just so sad and sorry for this situation - that doesn’t need to be happening. I can’t even imagine how sad the blind users who mod must feel - just a gut punch. Just terrible.

=> Comment by vivekisprogressive at 20/06/2023 at 02:12 UTC

7 upvotes, 0 direct replies

I see your good work. Keep it up.

=> Comment by [deleted] at 20/06/2023 at 13:12 UTC

6 upvotes, 1 direct replies

[deleted]

=> Comment by Phteven_j at 20/06/2023 at 15:11 UTC

8 upvotes, 0 direct replies

This is really disappointing. Sorry you're going through this.

What the fuck, Reddit? Why do you keep digging this hole?

=> Comment by [deleted] at 20/06/2023 at 16:17 UTC

6 upvotes, 1 direct replies

[deleted]